Something i just thought was odd.

One of our problems with colonizing Mars is the fact that it's too cold (not
to mention lack of atmosphere, but keeping comment simple) so injecting
carbon dioxide is needed to greenhouse it. Venus on the other hand (a planet
that is largely ignored i think) has just the opposite problem, too much
co2. Definatly too bad we can't use both of those to our own advantage.
comments, ideas?

--
Matthew Hagston
Hungates Creative Toys and Hobbies
........ http://www.hungates.com

"Matthew Hagston" wrote in
nk.net:

One of our problems with colonizing Mars is the fact that it's too
cold (not to mention lack of atmosphere, but keeping comment simple)
so injecting carbon dioxide is needed to greenhouse it. Venus on the
other hand (a planet that is largely ignored i think) has just the
opposite problem, too much co2. Definatly too bad we can't use both of
those to our own advantage. comments, ideas?


Mars is survivable; Venus is not. The extremes are far greater
at Venus and it's impossible to see how it could ever be
colonized, or utilized in any way. Visiting Venus will be
difficult enough.

Except for the thin mostly CO2 atmosphere, Mars is not too different
from Anarctica and we've had a permanent presence at the South Pole
for many decades.

Perhaps Mar's atmosphere could be 'bulked up' with cometary
material. Venus has an extremely dense atmosphere and a nearly
1G gravity field to work against, plus all that accumulated heat.

Barring spectacular technological breakthroughs, Venus will forever
be an unlivable Hell. Mars will merely be uncomfortable.

--Damon

Well from what I remember, besides being so must closer to the sun, part of
venuses hot atmosphere is due to greenhousing. Was just thinking since it
has such an excess of co2, if there was a way to pull some of that off and
dump it on mars (in a somewhat automated fasion of course) it could do a lot
for making mars more comfortable and possibly lessen the heat on venus so we
can explore it a bit more.


"Damon Hill" wrote in message
31...
"Matthew Hagston" wrote in
nk.net:

One of our problems with colonizing Mars is the fact that it's too
cold (not to mention lack of atmosphere, but keeping comment simple)
so injecting carbon dioxide is needed to greenhouse it. Venus on the
other hand (a planet that is largely ignored i think) has just the
opposite problem, too much co2. Definatly too bad we can't use both of
those to our own advantage. comments, ideas?


Mars is survivable; Venus is not. The extremes are far greater
at Venus and it's impossible to see how it could ever be
colonized, or utilized in any way. Visiting Venus will be
difficult enough.

Except for the thin mostly CO2 atmosphere, Mars is not too different
from Anarctica and we've had a permanent presence at the South Pole
for many decades.

Perhaps Mar's atmosphere could be 'bulked up' with cometary
material. Venus has an extremely dense atmosphere and a nearly
1G gravity field to work against, plus all that accumulated heat.

Barring spectacular technological breakthroughs, Venus will forever
be an unlivable Hell. Mars will merely be uncomfortable.

--Damon

In article ,
Damon Hill wrote:

Mars is survivable; Venus is not. The extremes are far greater
at Venus and it's impossible to see how it could ever be
colonized, or utilized in any way.

Well goodness, it's not *impossible* to see. I can see lots of ways,
most of them involving giant airships (think floating cities),
circulating at high altitude where the environment is more benign.

But I agree, Mars would be much easier, especially for biological Earth
critters like our current selves.

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Damon Hill wrote:
"Matthew Hagston" wrote in
nk.net:

One of our problems with colonizing Mars is the fact that it's too
cold (not to mention lack of atmosphere, but keeping comment
simple)
so injecting carbon dioxide is needed to greenhouse it. Venus on
the
other hand (a planet that is largely ignored i think) has just the
opposite problem, too much co2. Definatly too bad we can't use both
of
those to our own advantage. comments, ideas?


Mars is survivable; Venus is not. The extremes are far greater
at Venus and it's impossible to see how it could ever be
colonized, or utilized in any way. Visiting Venus will be
difficult enough.

See
http://www.sff.net/people/geoffrey.landis/papers.html
"Venus Related Papers " section.
In short, when thinking in three dimensions, venus is very survivable
and even more so than Mars.

A snip from "Colonization of venus":

However, viewed in a different way, the problem with Venus is merely
that the ground level is too far below the one atmosphere level. At
cloud-top level, Venus is the paradise planet. As shown in figure 2,
at an altitude slightly above fifty km above the surface, the
atmospheric pressure is equal to the Earth surface atmospheric pressure
of 1 Bar. At this level, the environment of Venus is benign.
=B7 above the clouds, there is abundant solar energy
=B7 temperature is in the habitable "liquid water" range of 0-50C
=B7 atmosphere contains the primary volatile elements required for life
(Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Sulfur)
=B7 Gravity is 90% of the gravity at the surface of Earth.


-kert

"kert" wrote in news:1109099787.607283.185080
@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

However, viewed in a different way, the problem with Venus is merely
that the ground level is too far below the one atmosphere level. At
cloud-top level, Venus is the paradise planet. As shown in figure 2,
at an altitude slightly above fifty km above the surface, the
atmospheric pressure is equal to the Earth surface atmospheric pressure
of 1 Bar. At this level, the environment of Venus is benign.
· above the clouds, there is abundant solar energy
· temperature is in the habitable "liquid water" range of 0-50C
· atmosphere contains the primary volatile elements required for life
(Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Sulfur)
· Gravity is 90% of the gravity at the surface of Earth.

Still a tough do with limited access to the heavier elements
that will be needed.

Exactly what is the atmospheric composition at that altitude?
What are the polar regions on Venus like; are there high
polar mountains with less intolerable conditions?

Floating cities aren't an easy concept for me; I'd rather have
solid ground to spread out and stand on.

--Damon

Hehehe, I agree. would just keep thinking the ground will drop out from
under ya at any moment. syphon off the atmosphere (mainly the co2). Perhaps
some 'solar shades' for the planet as well? less co2, less heat from the
sun, then it would just 'fix itself'. Interesting articals, will read more
when of 'em when I have time. :-)

-Matthew
"Damon Hill" wrote in message
31...
"kert" wrote in news:1109099787.607283.185080
@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

However, viewed in a different way, the problem with Venus is merely
that the ground level is too far below the one atmosphere level. At
cloud-top level, Venus is the paradise planet. As shown in figure 2,
at an altitude slightly above fifty km above the surface, the
atmospheric pressure is equal to the Earth surface atmospheric pressure
of 1 Bar. At this level, the environment of Venus is benign.
· above the clouds, there is abundant solar energy
· temperature is in the habitable "liquid water" range of 0-50C
· atmosphere contains the primary volatile elements required for life
(Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Sulfur)
· Gravity is 90% of the gravity at the surface of Earth.

Still a tough do with limited access to the heavier elements
that will be needed.

Exactly what is the atmospheric composition at that altitude?
What are the polar regions on Venus like; are there high
polar mountains with less intolerable conditions?

Floating cities aren't an easy concept for me; I'd rather have
solid ground to spread out and stand on.

--Damon

"Matthew Hagston" wrote in
nk.net:

Well from what I remember, besides being so must closer to the sun,
part of venuses hot atmosphere is due to greenhousing. Was just
thinking since it has such an excess of co2, if there was a way to
pull some of that off and dump it on mars (in a somewhat automated
fasion of course) it could do a lot for making mars more comfortable
and possibly lessen the heat on venus so we can explore it a bit more.

Now do you propose to move the gigatons (teratons?) of CO2 out of Venus's
gravity well, and then higher out of the Sun's even more substantial
gravity well? That's a terrific amount of energy. What "automated"
methods were you thinking about?

Mars is a bit limited in hydrogen and nitrogen, too.

Turning off the greenhouse effect on Venus sounds less difficult,
and certainly necessary for colonization in the conventional sense.
There's going to be an excess of sulfur compounds to deal with,
and who knows what else?

Venus definitely needs more exploration, in order to understand the
planet's history and resources. We know virtually nothing about its
surface aside from relatively low-resolution radar imaging. Now
did it come about that thick blanket of carbon dioxide and sulfuric
acid?

--Damon

Well to be very simplistic I was thinking something along the lines of the
old and overused 'Space Elevator' idea. Except for an elevator would just be
like a vacuum (why do I get an image of that movie, spaceballs as I write
this? lol). then it just sorts and stores the required elements onto
automated ships, maybe simply remote controlled tanks with solar sails?
delivery could be in the same sort of fashion I would assume thought
probably an easier way.

--Matthew
"Damon Hill" wrote in message
31...
"Matthew Hagston" wrote in
nk.net:

Well from what I remember, besides being so must closer to the sun,
part of venuses hot atmosphere is due to greenhousing. Was just
thinking since it has such an excess of co2, if there was a way to
pull some of that off and dump it on mars (in a somewhat automated
fasion of course) it could do a lot for making mars more comfortable
and possibly lessen the heat on venus so we can explore it a bit more.

Now do you propose to move the gigatons (teratons?) of CO2 out of Venus's
gravity well, and then higher out of the Sun's even more substantial
gravity well? That's a terrific amount of energy. What "automated"
methods were you thinking about?

Mars is a bit limited in hydrogen and nitrogen, too.

Turning off the greenhouse effect on Venus sounds less difficult,
and certainly necessary for colonization in the conventional sense.
There's going to be an excess of sulfur compounds to deal with,
and who knows what else?

Venus definitely needs more exploration, in order to understand the
planet's history and resources. We know virtually nothing about its
surface aside from relatively low-resolution radar imaging. Now
did it come about that thick blanket of carbon dioxide and sulfuric
acid?

--Damon

In article ,
Damon Hill wrote:
What are the polar regions on Venus like; are there high
polar mountains with less intolerable conditions?

No particularly high mountains there, last I heard... and the thick
atmosphere smooths out temperature variations, so the poles are not
substantially colder than elsewhere.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |