NEWS: Many, Many Planets May Exist

Here are an interesting pair of articles to read:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/extrasolar-03m.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/0...vey/index.html

Back to back, they extrapolitively imply the existence of a very large
number of planets. It's not unreasonable to think that a significant
number of these could be habitable. So why aren't we picking up the
extra-terrestrial radio signals? Sheer distance, perhaps? Sheer time
required for life to evolve?

Well, perhaps if not immediately habitable, then a number of them
could be terraformable -- perhaps better candidates than our own
immediate intra-solar neighbors, if not for the tremendous distance
between stars.

Oh well, at least future SETI and space telescope projects now have
another useful metric to scan for -- metallic stars. Perhaps the Webb
telescope will find something.

But if other earth-like planets were indeed detected with reasonable
confidence at a great distance, would it be justification for
increased investigation into new physics in the hopes of achieving FTL
travel to these distant oases?

On 22 Jul 2003 17:54:59 -0700, (sanman) wrote:

Here are an interesting pair of articles to read:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/extrasolar-03m.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/0...vey/index.html

Back to back, they extrapolitively imply the existence of a very large
number of planets. It's not unreasonable to think that a significant
number of these could be habitable.

That is certainly the case, but habitable depends on life, which at
this time is unconfirmed.

So why aren't we picking up the extra-terrestrial radio signals?

I consider it this way. As since radio signals take a very long time
to get from A to B, then since other alien civilizations have been
around for thousands to millions of years, then if there is a faster
method discovered in all that time, then so would they be using it.

Also as SETI would only be too happy to point out they are only
searching the most logical point in the radio spectrum to search,
where aliens could also broadcast in other frequency ranges. Even
using a lazer based system instead I recall.

Sheer distance, perhaps?

SETI's big dish can pick up radio signal from right across the galaxy,
provided that they were broadcast using a large dish as well.

Sheer time required for life to evolve?

Maybe it is true to say that intelligent life is rare, where if it is
also temporary, then within the time of this Universe it could have
been and gone before the next one comes along.

Still given the odds there are just too many reasons why we do not
hear from other civilizations, which could include that they simply do
not care about contacting others.

Well, perhaps if not immediately habitable, then a number of them
could be terraformable

Mars and Venus could in our own solar system, in theory at least. And
if they figure out how to move the planets one day, then maybe they
could move the likes of Titan or Europa closer to the sun to warm them
up.

So other solar systems would without doubt also have planets that
could be terraformed, but the greatest desire is finding one that does
not have to be.

In all this makes you wonder that as finding that pale blue dot,
seeing the spectrum and the continents of a earth like world is not
that many years away, if it is going to happen at all, then you just
have to wonder what the likes the governments on this planet would do.

Out there not to far away is an Earth like world, which may be a
little hard on our lungs but still livable, where here we are not
being able to get to it.

Kind of freaky wondering what plants and creatures would live on this
new world, where it could take hundreds or thousands of years to find
out. I am starting to think that I don't really want to know that,
where the question will remain of what is other life like?

-- perhaps better candidates than our own
immediate intra-solar neighbors,

Given the odds yes, but if conditions are right you could get life.

if not for the tremendous distance between stars.

God must have been a Sadist to create this Universe, then place
everything so far apart. ;-]

Oh well, at least future SETI and space telescope projects now have
another useful metric to scan for -- metallic stars. Perhaps the Webb
telescope will find something.

The most interesting aspect in extra-solar planet finding these days
is the optical interferometer. This would need to be space based to
work at its best, but this will remove the light of the parent star in
order to see the planets around it.

See the planets and sure enough you could see a world not unlike our
one.

But if other earth-like planets were indeed detected with reasonable
confidence at a great distance, would it be justification for
increased investigation into new physics in the hopes of achieving FTL
travel to these distant oases?

I can only envision that something dramatic will happen, when I just
cannot see us humans sitting here and pondering what could be one of
the most important questions ever. Just what is life like on that
planet?

First of all I guess that they would build an optical interferometer
so large on the Moon that it would count as the eighth wonder, had it
been on this planet.

That would allow them to see a lot, but it still would not resolve
this question.

Next I guess they would use the best technology and propulsion
currently available to launch a probe to this world, but of course
that would take so long that we could well have visited there
ourselves before it arrives.

Anyway, you only have a few more years to go now before they will
confirm the not unexpected existence of other life. It is unmistakable
after all when you see that spectrum.

Cardman.

"Cardman" wrote in message
news
On 22 Jul 2003 17:54:59 -0700, (sanman) wrote:
Still given the odds there are just too many reasons why we do not
hear from other civilizations, which could include that they simply do
not care about contacting others.
One possible explanation that is often overlooked : even if life is not
rarity in the universe, even intelligent life, maybe _civilizations_ are.
Maybe the most intriguing aspect of average intelligent life in universe is
that it doesnt like other intelligence and tends to destroy it.
Humans are perhaps an exception to this rule, and tend to like some amounts
of intelligent life beside them, and perform the destruction in larger
groups.

Everybody kinda assumes that when intelligence is sparked, it definitely
must evolve into big friendly civilization sooner or later. Well, perhaps
not.

-kert

"Kaido Kert" wrote in message
...
"Cardman" wrote in message
news
On 22 Jul 2003 17:54:59 -0700, (sanman) wrote:
Still given the odds there are just too many reasons why we do not
hear from other civilizations, which could include that they simply do
not care about contacting others.
One possible explanation that is often overlooked : even if life is not
rarity in the universe, even intelligent life, maybe _civilizations_ are.
Maybe the most intriguing aspect of average intelligent life in universe
is
that it doesnt like other intelligence and tends to destroy it.
Humans are perhaps an exception to this rule, and tend to like some
amounts
of intelligent life beside them, and perform the destruction in larger
groups.
Or, maybe civilizations are just very short-lived phenomenons in universe
time scale. Perhaps the average time window for civilizations capable of
broadcasting radio signals and also looking for them is about couple hundred
years. Its hopelessly short time to make a contact with others.

-kert

"Kaido Kert" wrote ...
Or, maybe civilizations are just very short-lived phenomenons in universe
time scale. Perhaps the average time window for civilizations capable of
broadcasting radio signals and also looking for them is about couple hundred
years. Its hopelessly short time to make a contact with others.

I hear SETI got a message from a pessimistic xenophilic extraterrestrial ...

"Wish you were there."

I would argue in part that we may not have been searching long enough,
seeing as we've only been able to detect radio waves for a split
second of galactic history. Or, again, that trying to contact other
worlds is a non-economicly rewarding activity that is done at most as
a societal "hobby" rather than a serious project.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:04:42 +0300, "Kaido Kert"
wrote:

One possible explanation that is often overlooked : even if life is not
rarity in the universe, even intelligent life, maybe _civilizations_ are.

That is certainly possible, which is why one day we will have to route
out this intelligence.

Maybe the most intriguing aspect of average intelligent life in universe is
that it doesnt like other intelligence and tends to destroy it.

Well lets consider the possible options...

First there is the civilization intent on genocide, where each faction
would battle and eliminate each other over time. This will continue
with larger and larger Wars until one faction rules the entire planet.

This would certainly not be a civilization that you would want to
meet, when they could hunt you down and destroy you. However, I can
only feel that other friendly galactic societies would perceive this
threat and either eliminate or contain it.

Second comes the civilization intent on domination, where they invade
and rule with no doubt an iron fist. And of course if we ever met
them, then so would we join the galactic society in a big way when
they are our new masters.

Hey this is not too bad, when instead of the likes of Bush and Blair
we now have Hfgiuehgdjohfgueh.

Third is the more likely option, when intelligence dictates that you
need to work with your enemy to ensure your own survival, which
produces a tolerant society towards aliens.

Our society I guess fits between the second and third options.

There is also the option that other alien societies are not interested
in exploration, where they back off from entering new areas. This I
guess would make for a dumb alien lacking in art forms like with
music, when they have a small frontal lobe.

So they would remain in caves and live not unlike an animal.

One other option I almost forgot is a society based around fear, when
they would not wish to seek alien contact due to fear of the unknown.

Humans are perhaps an exception to this rule, and tend to like some amounts
of intelligent life beside them,

Don't we call those females. ;-]

Everybody kinda assumes that when intelligence is sparked, it definitely
must evolve into big friendly civilization sooner or later. Well, perhaps
not.

It is however the most logical option, when the most successful
societies are those that can work together.

Cardman.

On 23 Jul 2003 02:59:58 -0700, (John Ordover) wrote:

I would argue in part that we may not have been searching long enough,
seeing as we've only been able to detect radio waves for a split
second of galactic history.

Yes, but if radio waves was the best contact method, then I would only
feel that we would be hearing something.

So like two hundred years down the line they will figure out some much
faster communication system, where as soon as they flick the on switch
the first time they will hear millions of broadcasts.

Or, again, that trying to contact other
worlds is a non-economicly rewarding activity that is done at most as
a societal "hobby" rather than a serious project.

Yet SETI does have large enough resources to be able to know that
other alien civilizations do not use radio waves a great deal.

It will be more interesting in the future when we see those pale blue
dots of life supporting worlds and SETI sends the message "We know
that you are out there".

I am left wondering if a spectrum of a life supporting world can pick
up evidence of an intelligent society. Alien made pollution and
unnatural materials like with exploding nuclear bombs.

So if aliens could see our planet from far away and we were not
broadcasting radio waves, then could traces of an intelligent society
be seen? Maybe even street lights would count.

Well I will look forwards to the day when SETI has a station on the
Moon, when they can then do a better search.

Cardman.

In article ,
Cardman wrote:

On 23 Jul 2003 02:59:58 -0700, (John Ordover) wrote:

I would argue in part that we may not have been searching long enough,
seeing as we've only been able to detect radio waves for a split
second of galactic history.

Yes, but if radio waves was the best contact method, then I would only
feel that we would be hearing something.

Actually, you should feel that anyway. Despite what Star Trek teaches,
it is ludicrous to believe that two neighboring civilizations (in the
galaxy) would arise within a few thousand (or even more) years of each
other. One of them is going to come significantly before the others,
and it will have plenty of time to colonize the entire galaxy while its
neighbors are still swimming in the oceans.

So, if ET is out there, he knows darn well that we're here and probably
has been watching us for thousands of years. If they wanted to say
hello, they wouldn't muck about sending feeble radio signals; they'd
just stop over and say hello. Alpha Centauri is probably a densely
settled system, and a hotspot for exobiologists (due to its proximity to
us, of course). Even without FTL travel, such a short hop would be
quite reasonable for something important -- as surely first contact with
an emerging civilization would be.

So like two hundred years down the line they will figure out some much
faster communication system, where as soon as they flick the on switch
the first time they will hear millions of broadcasts.

Again, I doubt there's anything to hear, since if they wanted us to hear
them there would be no mistaking it. Since we hear nothing, then either
they don't exist, or they don't want us to know that they exist. In the
latter case, I don't think any switch we could flip any time soon would
allow us to detect them. Their methods of stealth are likely to be far
beyond our methods of detection.

Or, again, that trying to contact other
worlds is a non-economicly rewarding activity that is done at most as
a societal "hobby" rather than a serious project.

Yet SETI does have large enough resources to be able to know that
other alien civilizations do not use radio waves a great deal.

Well, all we really know is that nobody is pointing those radio waves at
us.

It will be more interesting in the future when we see those pale blue
dots of life supporting worlds

If that happens. (Though I suspect it will -- my current best theory is
that virtually all other life-bearing worlds in the galaxy are ocean
planets, that don't have most of their planetary crust orbiting
thousands of kilometers over their heads, and it will turn out that
technological civilizations simply do not emerge in the water.)

and SETI sends the message "We know that you are out there".

That'd be fairly pointless. Either the life on that planet will still
be a bunch of slime molds, quite unable to receive the message, or
they'll be advanced critters that already settled most of the galaxy,
and not already know we're here, but were responsible for the nature
preserve we seem to be living in.

I am left wondering if a spectrum of a life supporting world can pick
up evidence of an intelligent society. Alien made pollution and
unnatural materials like with exploding nuclear bombs.

You're thinking of "intelligent society" as exactly where we are right
now, give or take a century or so. I blame this on Star Trek. In real
life, the odds of two civilizations arise that close to each other
border on impossible.

So if aliens could see our planet from far away and we were not
broadcasting radio waves, then could traces of an intelligent society
be seen? Maybe even street lights would count.

Ah, maybe I had your comment backwards. Yes, there are lots of ways an
advanced civilization could detect us from nearby star systems. Radio
waves would be the most obvious of this century, but well before that,
there are markers for photosynthesis, etc.

Well I will look forwards to the day when SETI has a station on the
Moon, when they can then do a better search.

I think SETI is fairly pointless, but I still look forward to the day
that they have a station on the Moon, because it will mean that we have
stations on the Moon!

Cheers,
- Joe

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Joseph J. Strout Check out the Mac Web Directory: |
| http://www.macwebdir.com |
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Kaido Kert wrote:
"Cardman" wrote in message
news
On 22 Jul 2003 17:54:59 -0700, (sanman) wrote:
Still given the odds there are just too many reasons why we do not
hear from other civilizations, which could include that they simply do
not care about contacting others.
One possible explanation that is often overlooked : even if life is not
rarity in the universe, even intelligent life, maybe _civilizations_ are.
Maybe the most intriguing aspect of average intelligent life in universe is
that it doesnt like other intelligence and tends to destroy it.
Humans are perhaps an exception to this rule, and tend to like some amounts
of intelligent life beside them, and perform the destruction in larger
groups.

This is unknown. We haven't met any yet and avoided destroying them /
being destroyed by them. We haven't even had to face the social upheavals
of "there *is* somebody out there".


Everybody kinda assumes that when intelligence is sparked, it definitely
must evolve into big friendly civilization sooner or later. Well, perhaps
not.

Considering the "window" we are have been looking for such, the galaxy would
have to be positively deeming with intelligent species eager to waste huge
resources to be noticed by others. Or of cause, some of the persistent gaussians
could turn out to be from other civilisations.


-kert



--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++