Astronaut deaths: shuttle versus other accidental deaths

I see all the talk about the risk of flying the shuttle and it makes
me wonder. 14 astronauts have died in shuttle accidents. Over the same
time period, how many astronauts have died from other accidental
causes such as car or aircraft crashes ?

A lot of professions are risky. Is the shuttle flight risk that much
more than say building a highrise, working on microwave/radio towers,
etc. ?

-- David

Maybe a s much as serving in or around the US armed forces?

:-)

Brian

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"David Ball" wrote in message
news | I see all the talk about the risk of flying the shuttle and it makes
| me wonder. 14 astronauts have died in shuttle accidents. Over the same
| time period, how many astronauts have died from other accidental
| causes such as car or aircraft crashes ?
|
| A lot of professions are risky. Is the shuttle flight risk that much
| more than say building a highrise, working on microwave/radio towers,
| etc. ?
|
| -- David
|


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Hallerb wrote:
Maybe a s much as serving in or around the US armed forces?

:-)

Brian


Its what 50 times unsafer than flying a jet in combat?

And it's far unsafer than flying a jet in peacetime.

Does anyone know of a U.S. military jet that has a failure rate of 2
fatal crashes in 100 flights?


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"David Ball" wrote in message
news
I see all the talk about the risk of flying the shuttle and it makes
me wonder. 14 astronauts have died in shuttle accidents. Over the same
time period, how many astronauts have died from other accidental
causes such as car or aircraft crashes ?

I can think of three offhand... Pete Conrad and those two fellows flying the
T-38 during the Gemini program. I remember seeing a few "deceased" notices
in the astronaut bios at NASA's site as well. My round guess would be seven
or eight people, maybe half of the "killed during flight" total.

A lot of professions are risky. Is the shuttle flight risk that much
more than say building a highrise, working on microwave/radio towers,
etc. ?

Compared to being an inner-city cop, miner, or firefighter, I'd guess "no".
The thing about spaceflight is that the risk is *total* - you're not really
facing a broad variety of possibilities (minor injury, major injury, being
trapped somewhere, disability, etc) but the single Big Possibility of
absolute death, should something go wrong. You're gambling on slightly
better odds, but with higher stakes.

"David Ball" wrote:

I see all the talk about the risk of flying the shuttle and it makes
me wonder. 14 astronauts have died in shuttle accidents. Over the same
time period, how many astronauts have died from other accidental
causes such as car or aircraft crashes ?

Astronauts killed in accidents:

Pre-shuttle

1964 31 Oct Ted Freeman Plane crash
1966 28 Feb Elliot See Plane crash
28 Feb Charlie Bassett Plane crash
1967 06 Jun Ed Givens Car accident
05 Oct CC Williams Plane crash

Shuttle era

1986 24 May Steve Thorne Plane crash
1989 17 Jun Dave Griggs Plane crash
1991 05 Apr Sonny Carter Plane crash
1996 22 Mar Bob Overmyer Plane crash
1999 08 Jul Charles "Pete" Conrad Motor-cycle accident
2001 24 May Patricia Hilliard Plane crash/burns

--

Brian Lawrence

Wantage, Oxfordshire, UK

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1996 22 Mar Bob Overmyer Plane crash
1999 08 Jul Charles "Pete" Conrad Motor-cycle accident

If you want to add former astronauts, then Karl Henize as well, who died while
trying to ascend Mt. Everest.

-A.L.

"Kent Betts" wrote:

"David Ball" wrote in message
news
I see all the talk about the risk of flying the shuttle and it makes
me wonder. 14 astronauts have died in shuttle accidents. Over the same
time period, how many astronauts have died from other accidental
causes such as car or aircraft crashes ?

There have been a few astronauts killed in airplane crashes, road crashes, a pad
accident, and so on. However flying on the shuttle is still much riskier than
routine daily activities.

It's worth pointing out that over the history of manned space
exploration, almost twenty times as many submariners have died in
significant operational accidents *in the US forces alone* than
astronauts *of all countries*. (Yet almost no one has shed tears in
this group over my lost brothers.)

The problem is much less the risk of space flight, than a groundless
belief that all activities should be as safe as a day in a nursery
school.

D.
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Corrections, comments, and additions should be
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"Terrence Daniels" wrote:
A lot of professions are risky. Is the shuttle flight risk that much
more than say building a highrise, working on microwave/radio towers,
etc. ?

Compared to being an inner-city cop, miner, or firefighter, I'd guess "no".
The thing about spaceflight is that the risk is *total* - you're not really
facing a broad variety of possibilities (minor injury, major injury, being
trapped somewhere, disability, etc) but the single Big Possibility of
absolute death, should something go wrong. You're gambling on slightly
better odds, but with higher stakes.

Utterly wrong. You think that bailing out during a contingency abort
only leads to the possibility of death or no injury? What about
running from a pad fire? What about failure of a suit circuit while
in the HAC? What about the myriad of other opportunities for major or
minor injury during a flight?

D.
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Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
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Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
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discussion.

(Derek Lyons) writes:

[...]

It's worth pointing out that over the history of manned space
exploration, almost twenty times as many submariners have died in
significant operational accidents *in the US forces alone* than
astronauts *of all countries*. (Yet almost no one has shed tears in
this group over my lost brothers.)

Of course, this is a space newsgroup, not a navy one, so it's
understandable. I don't value an astronaut's life over a submariners,
or vice versa, and I have a lot of repect for both (somewhat sadly for
me, I don't have any astronaut relatives, but I do have an uncle who's a
retired submariner).

It's also worth pointing out that over this same period, the raw numbers
of LOCV accidents during "flight" has been the same (two), despite the
fact that the number of vehicle-hours of exposure of submarines has to
be three or four orders of magnitude greater than that of spacecraft.
I'm prepared to believe that operating a spacecraft may be more
difficult or dangerous than a submarine (but I can't say that it's
obviously the case, and I'm prepared to believe the opposite as well),
but not to such a degree as to explain this discrepancy. I think the US
submarine fleet has had a spectacularly excellent track record, more so
than NASA, even when NASA was younger (when I think it was at its best).

And since I know Derek has a bee in his bonnet about Russian technology,
I'll say that the Russian submarine fleet isn't even in the same
ballpark when it comes to technology or operations, and their record
directly reflects this.

Just for my information, and I know this is off-topic so I don't want to
start a big discussion about it, in addition the the losses of the
Thresher and the Scorpion, have there been other US submarine accidents
which have led to crew death and/or major vehicle damage? I don't
personally know of any, but I suspect that's lack of information on my
part, not evidence of lack of accidents.

In article , Derek Lyons wrote:
"Kent Betts" wrote:

"David Ball" wrote in message
news
I see all the talk about the risk of flying the shuttle and it makes
me wonder. 14 astronauts have died in shuttle accidents. Over the same
time period, how many astronauts have died from other accidental
causes such as car or aircraft crashes ?

There have been a few astronauts killed in airplane crashes, road crashes, a pad
accident, and so on. However flying on the shuttle is still much riskier than
routine daily activities.

It's worth pointing out that over the history of manned space
exploration, almost twenty times as many submariners have died in
significant operational accidents *in the US forces alone* than
astronauts *of all countries*. (Yet almost no one has shed tears in
this group over my lost brothers.)

That's interesting. I hear about sub accidents now and then, but had
no idea what the statistics were.

You'd be wrong in my case, re shedding tears. This assumes that the
media considers such things "newsworthy" enough to bother reporting. I
think the last sub tragedy I heard about was the Russian sub which
sank a few years ago.

The problem is much less the risk of space flight, than a groundless
belief that all activities should be as safe as a day in a nursery
school.

There seems to be a widespread belief that all danger should be
removed from everything. It drives me crazy. (Well, crazier.) Among
other things, it seems like a really boring way to "live", if you
could call it that. *sigh*

Steve