New theory of gravitation

New physics happens in everyday places, you don't have to be in a
high-energy lab.

I was in the Tops supermarket the other day, returning some gone
produce.

The lady objects, "It's frozen! It'll be heavier when it's frozen!"

"I froze it so it wouldn't rot"

So they took it back.

Isn't it amazing though? The ambient *temperature* affects the curvature
of spacetime? You wonder what the law of gravitation is between a hot
body and a cold one ...

It might explain inflation in the earliest moments of the universe, when
it was godawfully hot ...

Laura

"Lacustral" wrote in message ...
New physics happens in everyday places, you don't have to be in a
high-energy lab.

I was in the Tops supermarket the other day, returning some gone
produce.

The lady objects, "It's frozen! It'll be heavier when it's frozen!"

"I froze it so it wouldn't rot"

So they took it back.

Isn't it amazing though? The ambient *temperature* affects the curvature
of spacetime? You wonder what the law of gravitation is between a hot
body and a cold one ...

It might explain inflation in the earliest moments of the universe, when
it was godawfully hot ...

Heh. Actually, temperature does affect mass to a very tiny
degree (pun!). The temperature of an object is related to
the kinetic energies held by its constituent bits, and
energy itself curves spacetime (General Relativity's stress-
energy tensor). The only thing is, hotter objects will be
more massive than colder ones -- so the grocery store clerk
got it exactly backwards!

Greg Neill ) wrote:
Heh. Actually, temperature does affect mass to a very tiny
degree (pun!). The temperature of an object is related to
the kinetic energies held by its constituent bits, and
energy itself curves spacetime (General Relativity's stress-
energy tensor). The only thing is, hotter objects will be
more massive than colder ones -- so the grocery store clerk
got it exactly backwards!

Maybe I should ask her for an extra credit, based on general relativity ...

Laura

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
.. .
"Lacustral" wrote in message
...
New physics happens in everyday places, you don't have to be in a
high-energy lab.

I was in the Tops supermarket the other day, returning some gone
produce.

The lady objects, "It's frozen! It'll be heavier when it's frozen!"

"I froze it so it wouldn't rot"

So they took it back.

Isn't it amazing though? The ambient *temperature* affects the
curvature
of spacetime? You wonder what the law of gravitation is between a hot
body and a cold one ...

It might explain inflation in the earliest moments of the universe, when
it was godawfully hot ...

Heh. Actually, temperature does affect mass to a very tiny
degree (pun!). The temperature of an object is related to
the kinetic energies held by its constituent bits, and
energy itself curves spacetime (General Relativity's stress-
energy tensor). The only thing is, hotter objects will be
more massive than colder ones -- so the grocery store clerk
got it exactly backwards!
.................................................. ..............
To ?

Actually you are the victim of a common misconception. A hot body is not
heavier than the same body when it is cold, unless you contend that thermal
photons ad weight to the body, which they don't.

If we transform the complete mass of the body into energy, the total amount
of energy of the hot body is greater than of the cold body. But a hot body
does not weigh more than a cold body, because its more rapidly vibrating hot
atoms do not weigh more than its less rapidly vibrating atoms when when they
are colder.

In summary, hot atoms do not weigh more than cold atoms, since their mass
remains constant.

Len.

PS. A frozen package of food does tend to weigh more than when it is at room
temperature, because it works as a dehumidifier. This means that the
moisture in the atmosphere condenses out on the cold body, adding to its
weight.
.................................................. .....

"Len Gaasenbeek" wrote in message
...

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
.. .
"Lacustral" wrote in message
...
New physics happens in everyday places, you don't have to be in a
high-energy lab.

I was in the Tops supermarket the other day, returning some gone
produce.

The lady objects, "It's frozen! It'll be heavier when it's frozen!"

"I froze it so it wouldn't rot"

So they took it back.

Isn't it amazing though? The ambient *temperature* affects the
curvature
of spacetime? You wonder what the law of gravitation is between a hot
body and a cold one ...

It might explain inflation in the earliest moments of the universe, when
it was godawfully hot ...

Heh. Actually, temperature does affect mass to a very tiny
degree (pun!). The temperature of an object is related to
the kinetic energies held by its constituent bits, and
energy itself curves spacetime (General Relativity's stress-
energy tensor). The only thing is, hotter objects will be
more massive than colder ones -- so the grocery store clerk
got it exactly backwards!
.................................................. .............
To ?

The clerk claimed that the frozen food was heavier
than it was in the unfrozen state.


Actually you are the victim of a common misconception. A hot body is not
heavier than the same body when it is cold, unless you contend that thermal
photons ad weight to the body, which they don't.

It's not a common misconception. Internal kinetic energy most certainly
does contribute to the mass of an object. Also, the contained thermal
photons also contribute.

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9909014


If we transform the complete mass of the body into energy, the total amount
of energy of the hot body is greater than of the cold body. But a hot body
does not weigh more than a cold body, because its more rapidly vibrating hot
atoms do not weigh more than its less rapidly vibrating atoms when when they
are colder.

Yes, they do.


In summary, hot atoms do not weigh more than cold atoms, since their mass
remains constant.

No. Rest mass is constant, but unless you determine the rest mass
at absolute zero, there will be a contribution due to the kinetic
energies (vibrational, rotational, linear) of the atoms. Binding
energies, too.


Len.

PS. A frozen package of food does tend to weigh more than when it is at room
temperature, because it works as a dehumidifier. This means that the
moisture in the atmosphere condenses out on the cold body, adding to its
weight.

I think we can ignore this effect for the purposes of the topic
under discussion.

Greg Neill replied to Len Gaasenbeek:

PS. A frozen package of food does tend to weigh more than when
it is at room temperature, because it works as a dehumidifier.
This means that the moisture in the atmosphere condenses out
on the cold body, adding to its weight.

I think we can ignore this effect for the purposes of the topic
under discussion.

If the topic is general relativity, it can be ignored, but
the topic appears to be the change in weight of produce
from freezing, in which case the added mass of frost will
likely be many trillions of times greater than the loss of
mass due to slower-moving molecules.

Just because frost is more mundane than general relativity
doesn't mean it isn't more important physics!

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

"Jeff Root" wrote in message
oups.com...

Greg Neill replied to Len Gaasenbeek:

PS. A frozen package of food does tend to weigh more than when
it is at room temperature, because it works as a dehumidifier.
This means that the moisture in the atmosphere condenses out
on the cold body, adding to its weight.

I think we can ignore this effect for the purposes of the topic
under discussion.

If the topic is general relativity, it can be ignored, but
the topic appears to be the change in weight of produce
from freezing, in which case the added mass of frost will
likely be many trillions of times greater than the loss of
mass due to slower-moving molecules.

Just because frost is more mundane than general relativity
doesn't mean it isn't more important physics!

All true, but the topic is GR (at least that is what
I'm led to believe so far...)

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
. ..
"Len Gaasenbeek" wrote in message
...

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
.. .
"Lacustral" wrote in message
...
New physics happens in everyday places, you don't have to be in a
high-energy lab.

I was in the Tops supermarket the other day, returning some gone
produce.

The lady objects, "It's frozen! It'll be heavier when it's frozen!"

"I froze it so it wouldn't rot"

So they took it back.

Isn't it amazing though? The ambient *temperature* affects the
curvature
of spacetime? You wonder what the law of gravitation is between a
hot
body and a cold one ...

It might explain inflation in the earliest moments of the universe,
when
it was godawfully hot ...

Heh. Actually, temperature does affect mass to a very tiny
degree (pun!). The temperature of an object is related to
the kinetic energies held by its constituent bits, and
energy itself curves spacetime (General Relativity's stress-
energy tensor). The only thing is, hotter objects will be
more massive than colder ones -- so the grocery store clerk
got it exactly backwards!
.................................................. .............
To ?

The clerk claimed that the frozen food was heavier
than it was in the unfrozen state.


Actually you are the victim of a common misconception. A hot body is
not
heavier than the same body when it is cold, unless you contend that
thermal
photons ad weight to the body, which they don't.

It's not a common misconception. Internal kinetic energy most certainly
does contribute to the mass of an object. Also, the contained thermal
photons also contribute.

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9909014


If we transform the complete mass of the body into energy, the total
amount
of energy of the hot body is greater than of the cold body. But a hot
body
does not weigh more than a cold body, because its more rapidly vibrating
hot
atoms do not weigh more than its less rapidly vibrating atoms when when
they
are colder.

Yes, they do.


In summary, hot atoms do not weigh more than cold atoms, since their
mass
remains constant.

No. Rest mass is constant, but unless you determine the rest mass
at absolute zero, there will be a contribution due to the kinetic
energies (vibrational, rotational, linear) of the atoms. Binding
energies, too.


Len.

PS. A frozen package of food does tend to weigh more than when it is at
room
temperature, because it works as a dehumidifier. This means that the
moisture in the atmosphere condenses out on the cold body, adding to its
weight.

I think we can ignore this effect for the purposes of the topic
under discussion.
.................................................. ..................
To Greg,

I disagree with your comments and stand by what I said.

An increase in temperature of a body does NOT increase its mass.
Nor does a decrease in temperature of a body decrease its mass.

If this were the case one would have to specify at what temperature the mass
of a body was measured to be accurate. As you are well aware, this is never
specified when we measure the mass of a body in the laboratory.

Finally, a rapidly moving body does not increase its 'relativistic' mass.
For an explanation see the first of my Selected Papers: "Helical Particle
Waves", which you will find at my website at:
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek

Len.
.................................................. ..................

we will only understand the "force" we call gravity when we begin to
acknowledge how it connects to life. there is a very large discrepancy
between what we know, and what we should know (by now), about the
controlling factors of life, and gravity makes the stars that support
it. spheres of hydrogen gas in space must ultimately connect to us, we
need to discover how. are not mysterous

"Len Gaasenbeek" wrote in message
news:EKOdnQsDsbq27PvZnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@wtccommunica tions.ca...

To Greg,

I disagree with your comments and stand by what I said.

An increase in temperature of a body does NOT increase its mass.
Nor does a decrease in temperature of a body decrease its mass.

If this were the case one would have to specify at what temperature the mass
of a body was measured to be accurate. As you are well aware, this is never
specified when we measure the mass of a body in the laboratory.

Consider the magnitude of the effect.


Finally, a rapidly moving body does not increase its 'relativistic' mass.

Huh? That's a fundamental result of special relativity.

For an explanation see the first of my Selected Papers: "Helical Particle
Waves", which you will find at my website at:
http://www2.rideau.net/gaasbeek

Oy vey.
Conversation terminated.