FWIW: ST Enterprise Cancelled

Andre Lieven wrote:

Harlie ain't as smart as he claims to be. He's really more mouth than
content when you really get down to it...


Well, the shelf full of Hugos and nebulas do speak for themselves.
Plus, hes the only sf/fantasy writers to get a story into the
" best short stories of (year XXXX) " anthology. The added teevee
writers guild awards are in there, as well.

You may not like the guy, and thats your call to make. But,
his writing qualifications are undeniable.

you're both right: great writer, absolute schmuck

Have I told y'all my "Terrell outnegotiated Harlan" story, or was that
on the prog-rock ng's?

--
Terrell Miller


"Every gardener knows nature's random cruelty"
-Paul Simon George Harrison

OM wrote:
On 3 Feb 2005 03:50:55 GMT, (Andre Lieven)
wrote:


Finding the news on the 'Net tonight, and between Paramount, on their
site, and several major papers, all reporting that Enterprise is
cancelled, and will end it's run of new episodes in May.


...This comes as AbZero surprise.

yep, the Friday move was a dead-giveaway.

My take on Enterprise:

Season One: mostly very, very good, with a couple clunker episodes
thrown in. Great to see most of the ST cliches absent and the crew
inventing their mission as they go along.

Season Two: hitting their stride nicely, but IIRC that's when the
"spotlight" episodes for the supporting cast started to unhappen.

Season Three: the head is dead but the body keeps flopping around on the
table. Low points: "Night of the living Vulcans"; Hoshi being
permanently reduced to the old Uhuru hailing-frequencies-open thing;
Mayweather disappearing.

Season Four: dunno, I only watched one randomly selected episode. Will
come back in a few years when the HDDVD box sets come out.

--
Terrell Miller


"Every gardener knows nature's random cruelty"
-Paul Simon George Harrison

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...


Andre Lieven wrote:


But yes, if you stuck with Ellison's concepts, and pilot script,
which is widely enough available to read, you'd have a shot.

As he viewed the series as being a search for the mythical control
room, which, when you find it, the series is done.



Especially when you find out that you yourself are Number 1, instead of
Number 6!
Remember the somewhat unexpected way that Blake's 7 ended...now _that_
was original.

Blake woke up in his bed having dreamed he was a psychiatrist who had dreamt
he owned an Inn in Vermont?


Not terribly upbeat, but original.

Pat

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:55:17 -0600, Pat Flannery wrote:

Speaking of low budget science fiction- if you go here and download the
theatrical trailer, you can see a very annoying woman singing, and then
you can see the Martian War Machine's legs, and the Handling Machine's
tendrils, Big Ben getting blown apart, and the cheesiest looking green
falling star you ever laid eyes on; and yes- although they don't show
it, the Thunder Child is going to be toasted:
http://www.pendragonpictures.com/WOTWTeaser.html

Hmmm... even cheesier than when they spoke of their
historical accuracy in "Peter Jackson and LOTR" terms.

The musical intro does not help sell the film.

The tripod does the three-legged dogtrot instead
of proper whirling rotation.

The green fireball is made even cheesier by the
low-res pixelated .wmv trailer.

Apparently the singer gets et, 'cause there were no
daring, heroic rescues in the text.

The green lightning "heat ray" sucks.

But... even so... all credit to Pendragon for their
guts in tackling the project in the face of the
Hollywood machine and the Cruise drones.

Yes, it's the "other" War Of The Worlds movie that premieres next month-
the one without Tom Cruise and some no doubt patented Spielbergian
annoying kids.

The superbowl trailer for that one just went up... and yes indeed...

Your Venusian Pteradactyl Corp spies did not lead you astray!

You get one standard-issue cute personality-filled Spielbergian blond
girl-child...

Whom I sincerely hope the Martians eat.

.... whom it is gar-un-teed the Martians will not eat.

Although Spielzebub tries to soften the blow of his
treachery by showing her cute blond personality-filled
look of horror as the area they are fleeing gets
majorly trashed.

Pat

--
Chuck Stewart
"Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"

Bring back the best SF TV of the 70s... QUARK!


Matt Bille
)
OPINIONS IN ALL POSTS ARE SOLELY THOSE OF THE AUTHOR

Pat Flannery ) writes:
Andre Lieven wrote:

And, I can kinda relate: When my divorce was going on, aside from
a circle of close friends, I didn't much talk about it. Didn't want
to overburden people.

But, when the ex started spreading out and out lies, and widely, well,
I could either stay quiet, and let that give the lies some cred, or
I could simply put forth the facts about what was being bullshat about.

But consider this: he apparently knew so little about this woman, and
was so clueless about marrying her would be like, that he could only
tolerate the situation for about a week or so...what does that say about
his degree of forethought in regards to getting into this situation?

Ellison has never tried to suggest that, as a young man, he wasn't
impulsive. So ? Relative to Britney Spears, his was a long duration
marriage... g

At the very least it shows that he didn't put enough effort into
understanding what exactly he was getting himself into- and getting
married and having children are the two decisions in one's life that
have the most potential for screwing it up royally if they go wrong- so
why didn't he put more thought into it? He wasn't 16 at the time...

Well, read what he had to say about it. And, consider: Is he the
only man to " drink from the wrong cup " ? I did: I learned. Some
learning comes at a high cost. I commend Ellison for being very,
in fact, brutally honest about his experiences and his learning
from them. Note, as well, that he is now at about 20 years married
to Susan. I'd say that shows that he did learn, and well.

That's the charitable view of the situation...the other alternative
would be that he got married with stars in his eyes, realized it wasn't
what he thought it would be, and promptly chucked the whole thing like a
kid tossing away last week's toy... in short, the actions of a spoiled
child.

Then, you don't know the circumstances of that situation. Hes
written about them, read what he said...

He found the puppy, and he got to keep the puppy, but he wasn't up to
feeding it, or cleaning up after it. (There's a "A Boy And His Dog"
analogy in there somewhere- his wife wasn't named "Blood" by any chance?

No. That tale was written as a tribute to his beloved dog of the
60, Abahu (sp?). Read about his process in " Blood's A Rover ", a volume
which my library has, but I do not, as yet.

Maybe it's a menstrual reference).

Nope: I would suggest that before you try to read Ellison's tea
leaves, that you first learn a bit about what they... are.

So, to me, it seems that Ellison has been far more patient than I
would ever have been, and for a far longer time period: 1966-1996.

Are we talking about the Star Trek script or the marriage?

The script.

The mini-marriage is described in "Dangerous Visions" (the intro to
"Riders"?) And he was bitching to all and sundry about the Star Trek
script from around ten minutes after he left Roddenberry's office.

Source ?

Thirty years, when his detractors were writing book after book, and
only when he *replies*, does he get criticised ? That doesn't seem...
right.

He started complaining about his ex-wife within minutes of divorcing
her, after the horrible week-or-so of marriage

So ? Most ex's do stuff like that. You gonna go over to al.support.
divorce and castigate them all for such things ?

Yeah...but for what was it? A _week_?! Dear God, seven days in the fires
of hell! By the time he writes about it in Dangerous Visions the wife
has become a "thing" in his own words IIRC.

Do you want to hear some of my tales ? A part of my divorce made
Canadian criminal legal precedent...

And, I don't recall tales of which wife of his, but this may have
been the very short termer, who claimed not only half his money,
during the marriage, but tried to attach 50% of his future
earnings...

His work is some of the weaker stuff in "Dangerous Visions".*

How about all the other stories and books hes done ? You ever
read " Mephisto In Onyx " ?

I ditched reading all sci-fi writing around 1990; in fact, I pretty
much ditched reading all fiction writing at all around the same time. It
was clunkily done in most cases, and the dual threats that can destroy
any writer's art are all-too-obviuos in science fiction in particular;
1.) Knowing your audience too well....tell them what they want to hear
and you'll be rich in no time... so don't give 'em any threats to their
world view...reinforce it, in fact....

Yes, not a little SF, or fiction as a whole, does that. That doesn't mean
it all sucks.

Had I such a 'tude, say, about media SF, I would have missed out on
Babylon 5. That would have been my loss.

Are they social outcasts?
"Hell, son....I'll tell _you_ about social outcasts...social outcasts
who conquered a galaxy, that is!"
Somewhat iffy in the success of their sex life?
"Hell, son....I'll tell _you_ about women....women who grow vaginal
fangs in bed, that is!"
The poor and disenfranchised?
"Hell, son....I'll tell _you_ about someone who didn't have
anything...except of course a alien genetic strand that gave him
superhuman powers, that is!"
Great dreams without the education to realize them?
"Hell son.... they thought he was a crazy no-nothing...right up till
they saw that toy train-based antigravity machine, that is!"
And on, and on, and on....your audience are basically addicts, and the
drug needs to be none to pure to satiate their needs... nor cheap, either.

Well, paperbacks are now around $10...

But it must be administered frequently, lest a debilitating state of
self-reality ensues.

I'd say that the bulk of people I know through fandom are quite well
grounded in dealing well with reality.

2.) While reinforcing their world view, also start moving them over to
yours, bit-by-bit. Why? Major ego trip!

Don't storytellers do that, no matter the medium ?

In any case, I do disagree with Ellison, on some issues. So, with
me, the only person I can speak for, its not worked...

With fiction it takes a little effort...you're stuck in earth's history
and political systems....but whereas an idea that's obviously completely
crazed if expressed in our own present world isn't going to fly, just
move it a few light years off, and a few years into the future
and.....bingo! The turkey sprouts condor sized wings and starts heading
toward the stratosphere.
"And soon everyone realized that it was possible to build a sound
economic and political system based on the free trade of child slave
labor, and the galaxy became a happy place..."

shrug Where else is literature considering possible issues of the
future ? Not Oprah's booklist...

He likes to complain; he likes to complain _a lot_.

So ? Aren't there a few people here, of whom this could also
be, at times, said ?

Yeah...but not all the time, and so publicly...so very, very, publicly.

Usenet's not public ?

The Convention Crowd: "Oh, Harlan's here! Everybody get ready to take
notes...I wonder who he's going to rip up this time?"
Harlan: "TOADBURGERS! That's what I called them, TOADBURGERS! And we all
know what happened THEN, don't we?"

OK, I've got to ask: When have you been to an Ellison appearance ?

And Harlen would have been ****ed off about the way it was filmed,
no doubt.

Can I borrow that crystal ball ? I have some stocks to pick.

He liked "A Boy And His Dog"; the Feminists didn't, of course, but
didn't that make for a real scene though?

He's had stories that both Feminists and " reactionaries " both
hated, for the politics they *percieved* in the tale...

The Convention Crowd: "Oh, boy! Here we go!"
Harlan: "So I said DON'T use that as the last line in the movie....but
it was A PRETTY GOOD line, none the less! And we know what happened
THEN, don't we?"

I'm not sure that I've ever heard Harlan say " and we all know what
happened then. "

Note that Harlan has nothing but good things to say about his no
less than five year association with Babylon 5...

Yup...and that Jack The Ripper episode had him written all over it,
didn't it? Because he's got a thing for Jack The Ripper, and it keeps
coming back, like a improperly staked vampire.

What, JMS can't have anything to do with that ?

Harlan's inspired so many things... what, in detail has he done for
those thing's he's inspired? Stuck the "Harlan Ellison" label on them
for one thing... your mark of quality in the exploitive world of Sci-Fi.

Like....... ?

Does he get any credit for that ? Or, do you want to do more of
what you say that he does ?

I just think the guy is a loudmouthed, whining stuffed shirt with an ego
the size of Jupiter who really _enjoys_ being a loudmouthed whining
stuffed shirt with an ego the size of Jupiter...it's his shtick.
But that's just my opinion.

" No one is entitled to his opinion. They are only entitled to an
*informed* opinion. " Yes, Harlan Ellison.

'Cause this reads, to me, to be more of ad hom, than advised.

OK, and thats your call to make, for yourself. But, you cannot deny
that SF has rewarded Ellison, with award after award, and hes done not
too shabbily, in the mainstream, too.

See remarks on fiction writing above.

Indeed: I heartily disagree with it.

Now Asimov was a great writer; he could write on virtually any subject
well and with real knowledge of it.

Non fiction, sure. Many of the Golden Age SF writers were not that great
with characterisation, and such.

I'd hate to see what "The Sensuous Dirty Short Man" by "E" would read
like.

OK.

And, if he were really " trying to get noticed " how come he does so
few cons a year, and why is that true, about the last 20 years ?

Familiarity breeds contempt, for starters. And also might lower your
speaking fee for those rare appearances, as well.

Well, he used to do more, but time, work, and well, age, has caught
up, some. He is 70, now.

Besides, having been one of the few sci-fi writers who rose out of the
convention scene, he probably knows all-too-well what a extraordinarily
strange breed of humanity is sitting out there facing towards him.

" One of the few " ? Man, you ain't been around the field much.
Loads came from fandom. He wasn't even the first.

I'll bet he's got a Taser hidden on him somewhere, at the very least ..
if it were me, I'd suggest an Uzi as well.

Why ?

Of course I think that around 90% of all science fiction writing has all
the artistic merit of a black-velvet fluorescent Elvis painting, and
that around 5% of the remainder manages to claw itself to the level of a
black-velvet non-fluorescent matador painting.

OK. That, however, doesn't necessarily trump the considered views of
others, including the givers of the various SF awards.

"Cleanest damn syringe you ever saw!"
(The junkies cheer in unison.)

Isn't it rather... Hendrik to disdain people for having a different
opinion ? Isn't it just possible that the folks who appreciate Ellison's
work, might actually be as capable as you, in making such choices ?

* Let's face it, after Farmer's "Riders Of The Purple Wage" just about
_any_ story in Dangerous Visions #1 and 2 had a hell of a high bar to
jump over. Dear God, I wish someone would have filmed that; the
contraceptive foam scene alone would have had the audience in fits of
hysteria. John Huston would have made the perfect Grandpa Winnegan.

Agreed. That was a kick ass story. But, I well enjoyed, and continue
to enjoy, upon re-readings, many of the others. Including many of
Ellison's, too.

There are a lot of good stories in that first one, Harlan's isn't one of
them.

Your view: I disagree.

The second volume was loads weaker.

Ditto.

Neither is as interesting or as informative as Miller's "The Dream
Machines"

Why would you judge fiction against a standard of " informative " ?
Thats... weird, like blaming a bicycle for not being a stove.

They are just a way to kill some time, when it comes right down to it.

For you: many people do well enjoy all sorts of fiction.

If your issue is that you just don't much like fiction, well, OK,
but denigrating not only fiction, but all fiction readers would
be about as reasonable as the folks who call space travel " bilge ".

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

Terrell Miller ) writes:
Andre Lieven wrote:

Harlie ain't as smart as he claims to be. He's really more mouth than
content when you really get down to it...

Well, the shelf full of Hugos and nebulas do speak for themselves.
Plus, hes the only sf/fantasy writers to get a story into the
" best short stories of (year XXXX) " anthology. The added teevee
writers guild awards are in there, as well.

You may not like the guy, and thats your call to make. But,
his writing qualifications are undeniable.

you're both right: great writer, absolute schmuck

Yes, and no. g

Have I told y'all my "Terrell outnegotiated Harlan" story, or was that
on the prog-rock ng's?

Not to my recollection.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

On 4 Feb 2005 04:16:33 GMT, (Andre Lieven)
wrote:

Terrell Miller ) writes:
Andre Lieven wrote:
OM noted what an idiot and a loudmouth Harlan Ellison was, is and always will be:
Harlie ain't as smart as he claims to be. He's really more mouth than
content when you really get down to it...

Well, the shelf full of Hugos and nebulas do speak for themselves.

....No, it just means that the sci-fi writers like to kiss their own
butts, that's all.

You may not like the guy, and thats your call to make. But,
his writing qualifications are undeniable.

....Sorry, I deny each and every one of them.

you're both right: great writer, absolute schmuck

Yes, and no. g

.....Agreed. Absolute schmuck, lousy excuse for a writer.

Have I told y'all my "Terrell outnegotiated Harlan" story, or was that
on the prog-rock ng's?

Not to my recollection.

....Do tell. I love to hear Satan's excuse for a Smurf get his
comeuppabce!

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

OM (om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org) writes:
On 4 Feb 2005 04:16:33 GMT, (Andre Lieven)
wrote:

Terrell Miller ) writes:
Andre Lieven wrote:
OM noted what an idiot and a loudmouth Harlan Ellison was, is and
always will be: Harlie ain't as smart as he claims to be. He's
really more mouth than content when you really get down to it...

Well, the shelf full of Hugos and nebulas do speak for themselves.

...No, it just means that the sci-fi writers like to kiss their own
butts, that's all.

Well, first, Hugos are not given by writers, they're given by
memberships of Worldcons. Second, Nebula awards do have other
competitors for them, so if one writer wins a bunch, well,
its not likely because the other writers wanted to forgo theirs.

Do you have any specific information you'd like to share, in
support of that statement, or is it just a... guess ?

You may not like the guy, and thats your call to make. But,
his writing qualifications are undeniable.

...Sorry, I deny each and every one of them.

you're both right: great writer, absolute schmuck

Yes, and no. g

....Agreed. Absolute schmuck, lousy excuse for a writer.

Awards say you're... wrong.

Have I told y'all my "Terrell outnegotiated Harlan" story, or was that
on the prog-rock ng's?

Not to my recollection.

...Do tell. I love to hear Satan's excuse for a Smurf get his
comeuppabce!

Whats that German word, about the perils of enjoying other people's
hardships ?

Besides karma, I mean... g

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

On 4 Feb 2005 04:15:26 GMT, (Andre Lieven)
wrote:

The mini-marriage is described in "Dangerous Visions" (the intro to
"Riders"?)

....Not the first time Harlie's proved he's not what you'd call a
ladies' man. There's the jellybean incedent that's prime proof.

And he was bitching to all and sundry about the Star Trek
script from around ten minutes after he left Roddenberry's office.

Source ?

....Andre, I swear. Sometimes you're an even bigger Harlan sycophant
than that egotistical wanking moron, Thomas Young Galloway. Do some
research, and you'll find everyone from Sir Art Clarke to Ben Bova to
Marion Zimmer Bradley has heard Harlie bitch about how Gene
Roddenberry "raped, maimed, pillaged and burned" his script for "City
on the Edge of Forever". He bitched about it when he accepted the
award for the script, and still bitches about it today. The wimp won't
be satisfied until either Paranoidmount films the script as originally
written - two crewmen smuggling drugs under Kirk's nose, anyone? - or
Gene rises from the grave, admits wrongdoing, and apologizes.

....You want sources? Harlie himself is a good one. Gene Roddenberry,
Herb Solow, Bob Justman, and even David Gerrold all confirm Harlie's
liitle temper tantrums. Hell, even Solow and Justman have published
the memos, ferchrissakes!

....On a related note, I've read a first draft, the final draft he
turned in, and the actual filming version that Gene tweaked. In the
final analysis, Gene's tweaks actually made the episode work,
especially for TV. The concept was Harlan's, but the finished product
is just as much the Great Bird's as it was the Little Turd's.

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr