No Significant Relief from Global Warming

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 11:21:58 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
wrote:

Bill wrote in
:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 23:25:31 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc wrote:

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 4:46:04 PM UTC-7, Rodney Pont
wrote:

It's not just producing co2 that matters. If we used more wood
for things and less metals it would help. I was at my doctors
last week and the couch had a wooden frame. That's carbon
that's not in the atmosphere and a lot less was created making
the frame than would have been if it had needed metal.

Wooden objects usually have to be shaped by *human hands*.
Whereas metal objects can be cast or stamped. So that makes
them much more expensive, unless they're imported from a
low-wage country, and _then_ they cost foreign exchange.

John Savard

A lot of wood products are CNC machined.

Not until they're loaded into the machine, by hand. And CNC machines
are mighty expensive.

CNC machines are essentially free when you look at the economics of
mass production. And the manual handling of wood is no different from
the manual handling of metals.

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 11:06:43 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 12:20:00 -0500, Bill wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 23:25:31 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc wrote:

Wooden objects usually have to be shaped by *human hands*. Whereas metal
objects can be cast or stamped. So that makes them much more expensive,
unless they're imported from a low-wage country, and _then_ they cost
foreign exchange.

A lot of wood products are CNC machined.

I can't think of any mass produced wood products that aren't made by
fully automated, computerized equipment. Even wooden furniture that
might be assembled by cheap foreign labor still has all its components
machined.

Clearly I'm behind the times, and wood really is a viable alternative, in
some applications, at least to plastic, if not metal.

John Savard

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 12:38:58 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 11:21:58 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
wrote:
Bill wrote in
:

A lot of wood products are CNC machined.

Not until they're loaded into the machine, by hand. And CNC machines
are mighty expensive.

CNC machines are essentially free when you look at the economics of
mass production. And the manual handling of wood is no different from
the manual handling of metals.

I am not really familiar with the manufacturing economics of wood
products to be sure of my ground, but my gut instinct is that using a CNC
machine to make something of wood, compared to molding something of
plastic, is analogous to the difference between electron-beam lithography
versus the usual method for making integrated circuits.

In both cases, you are using an automated system, instead of human hands,
to move a tool from place to place over the surface of the thing being
made, instead of just stamping the whole thing out in one go.

So it would seem that it would have to be a more expensive technique from
the point of view of operating costs, not just the capital cost of the
CNC miller.

John Savard

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 12:40:48 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Chris L Peterson wrote in
news

CNC machines are essentially free when you look at the economics
of mass production.

Then why won't they deliver one without a very large wire transfer?

"Essentially free" doesn't mean "free", it means the value of the
products that can be made with one far exceeds its cost, which can
still be large.

So you're not proving him wrong, or even contradicting him.

My difference is instead that since CNC machines don't stamp out a
whole wood item in one go, but instead shape it bit by bit, they really
aren't going to last long enough between repairs to make a huge enough
amount of product to earn that "essentially free" designation.

John Savard

Quadibloc wrote in
:

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 12:40:48 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Chris L Peterson wrote in
news

CNC machines are essentially free when you look at the
economics of mass production.

Then why won't they deliver one without a very large wire
transfer?

"Essentially free" doesn't mean "free", it means the value of
the products that can be made with one far exceeds its cost,
which can still be large.

For people who are, at best, sloppy with language and don't know what
words mean. And I'm being generous with that description.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 1:36:29 PM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 11:23:54 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:04:36 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:

I think that solar is capable of producing vastly more energy than
nuclear. It is solar that will gift us with abundant energy (although
that's no reason not to be as efficient as technology will permit).

Solar takes up a lot of ground area. Thus, for unit of energy
produced, it has environmental impacts, though those are
relatively gentle... and it competes directly with food
production. Or imperils delicate desert ecosystems, take your
pick. (And think of the huge power lines needed if you pick the
latter.)

There is a lot of environmentally low value land. And an awful lot of
energy production can be accomplished locally. Most residential and
private transportation energy, for instance, can be accommodated
through rooftop systems. None of this requires technology that is more
than normal development from what we have now, or is more than a
couple of decades out.

Rooftop solar should be part of all local ordinances for new construction just like toilets are required in all new construction. If you're going to aircondition your home in the hot summer months then it should be primarily fed by solar panels. Every large commercial/industrial building should have roofs made from solar panels. Solar shingles.

Razzy

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 2:33:23 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Quadibloc wrote in
:
On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 12:40:48 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Chris L Peterson wrote in
news

CNC machines are essentially free when you look at the
economics of mass production.

Then why won't they deliver one without a very large wire
transfer?

"Essentially free" doesn't mean "free", it means the value of
the products that can be made with one far exceeds its cost,
which can still be large.

For people who are, at best, sloppy with language and don't know what
words mean. And I'm being generous with that description.

Only in the sense that you're applying it to other people, instead of
where it belongs, to yourself.

John Savard

On Wednesday, 24 January 2018 20:58:31 UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 12:40:48 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Chris L Peterson wrote in
news

CNC machines are essentially free when you look at the economics
of mass production.

Then why won't they deliver one without a very large wire transfer?

"Essentially free" doesn't mean "free", it means the value of the
products that can be made with one far exceeds its cost, which can
still be large.

So you're not proving him wrong, or even contradicting him.

My difference is instead that since CNC machines don't stamp out a
whole wood item in one go, but instead shape it bit by bit, they really
aren't going to last long enough between repairs to make a huge enough
amount of product to earn that "essentially free" designation.

John Savard

The machines are reliable. They just need new, long lasting, cutting tools at intervals. Expensive robots can pay for themselves in only a few short months in small manufacturing companies. CNC machines are really just second generation robots. The first were human beings on manual, assembly lines.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 13:10:54 -0800 (PST), Razzmatazz
wrote:

Rooftop solar should be part of all local ordinances for new construction just like toilets are required in all new construction. If you're going to aircondition your home in the hot summer months then it should be primarily fed by solar panels. Every large commercial/industrial building should have roofs made from solar panels. Solar shingles.

I was in Holland a couple of years ago and noticed that all the new
construction included solar panels. Not sure if this is by ordinance
or just a cultural shift, but they're clearly ahead of us.

On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 11:55:35 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 12:38:58 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Wed, 24 Jan 2018 11:21:58 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
wrote:
Bill wrote in
:

A lot of wood products are CNC machined.

Not until they're loaded into the machine, by hand. And CNC machines
are mighty expensive.

CNC machines are essentially free when you look at the economics of
mass production. And the manual handling of wood is no different from
the manual handling of metals.

I am not really familiar with the manufacturing economics of wood
products to be sure of my ground, but my gut instinct is that using a CNC
machine to make something of wood, compared to molding something of
plastic, is analogous to the difference between electron-beam lithography
versus the usual method for making integrated circuits.

In both cases, you are using an automated system, instead of human hands,
to move a tool from place to place over the surface of the thing being
made, instead of just stamping the whole thing out in one go.

So it would seem that it would have to be a more expensive technique from
the point of view of operating costs, not just the capital cost of the
CNC miller.

You're shifting the argument a bit here. We were initially comparing
wood to metal. Yes, some metal parts are molded, but a great deal of
metal production still involves milling operations- using cutting
tools to remove material. What's called subtractive machining. The
economics are going to be similar for metal and wood, as well as the
tool technology.

In many cases plastics are cheaper, although plastic molding equipment
may be even more capital intensive than CNC machines. But the volumes
are typically higher.

BTW, I saw a video a while back about IKEA production. Most of their
products are wood, and the manufacturing is extremely automated, with
stamping, lamination, and milling all delivered by CNC machines. Other
than wood instead of metal, the production process and factory floors
looked no different than any other modern automated facility. (Not a
lumberjack or wood wright to be seen.)