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  #31  
Old February 23rd 17, 07:19 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 10:04:11 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Do you ever seek medical care? Do you bother to eat and drink? Why do you
bother to do these things when you're going to die anyway?


That's a poor argument. A better one might be, "Why do you bother
doing those things when you're going to be ressurected and live forever?" :-)


I don't know that it's a better argument. But it's a similar one.

In this forum, I challenge those who don't believe in AGW because they
are factually wrong and making pseudoscientific claims in a science
forum. It has nothing to do with the survival of our species, and
everything to do with the problems created by the science denialism
and the inability to use reason and critical thinking.


So it's not "irrelevant" anymore? :-)


It is entirely irrelevant to the original topic. But Gary, and now
you, have shifted to something completely different, which is what I
responded to.

I get you: You believe in Truth at any cost. So why do you believe in
Truth when you're just going to die anyway and the human race is bound
to become extinct? Inquiring minds really do want to know.


I don't know what you mean by "Truth". But I fail to understand why
the inevitability of my personal death and of the extinction of the
human species in any way alters the meaning I create for my own life
while I am living it. I fail to understand the reasoning that our
lives only have meaning if we are somehow individually immortal.
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  #32  
Old February 23rd 17, 09:08 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
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Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 11:19:19 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 10:04:11 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Do you ever seek medical care? Do you bother to eat and drink? Why do you
bother to do these things when you're going to die anyway?


That's a poor argument. A better one might be, "Why do you bother
doing those things when you're going to be ressurected and live
forever?" :-)


I don't know that it's a better argument. But it's a similar one.


Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in
aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans.

In this forum, I challenge those who don't believe in AGW because they
are factually wrong and making pseudoscientific claims in a science
forum. It has nothing to do with the survival of our species, and
everything to do with the problems created by the science denialism
and the inability to use reason and critical thinking.


So it's not "irrelevant" anymore? :-)


It is entirely irrelevant to the original topic. But Gary, and now
you, have shifted to something completely different, which is what I
responded to.


I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is
slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect
you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"?

I get you: You believe in Truth at any cost. So why do you believe in
Truth when you're just going to die anyway and the human race is bound
to become extinct? Inquiring minds really do want to know.


I don't know what you mean by "Truth".


Things as they were, and are, and will be, to the best of our knowledge,
anyway :-)

But I fail to understand why the inevitability of my personal death and
of the extinction of the human species in any way alters the meaning I
create for my own life while I am living it.


Have you ever experienced existential angst?

I fail to understand the reasoning that our lives only have meaning if
we are somehow individually immortal.


I can certainly understand the pride in the human race as expressed by
Heinlein, particularly in "Starship Troopers." But you don't seem to
even have that. That's why I'm wondering. What "meaning" do you create?
What keeps you from experiencing existential angst?
  #33  
Old February 24th 17, 01:15 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 12:08:54 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in
aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans.


On an individual level, yes. As a species? Not apparent.

In this forum, I challenge those who don't believe in AGW because they
are factually wrong and making pseudoscientific claims in a science
forum. It has nothing to do with the survival of our species, and
everything to do with the problems created by the science denialism
and the inability to use reason and critical thinking.

So it's not "irrelevant" anymore? :-)


It is entirely irrelevant to the original topic. But Gary, and now
you, have shifted to something completely different, which is what I
responded to.


I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is
slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect
you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"?


Same question. If you believe you're going to die, why worry about
anything?

But I fail to understand why the inevitability of my personal death and
of the extinction of the human species in any way alters the meaning I
create for my own life while I am living it.


Have you ever experienced existential angst?


No.

I fail to understand the reasoning that our lives only have meaning if
we are somehow individually immortal.


I can certainly understand the pride in the human race as expressed by
Heinlein, particularly in "Starship Troopers." But you don't seem to
even have that. That's why I'm wondering. What "meaning" do you create?
What keeps you from experiencing existential angst?


Why would I have pride in my species? That makes no sense to me. I can
only take pride in things of my own making. I create my own meaning in
terms of my experiences, my friends and family, the knowledge I
discover, the knowledge I pass on. I can't understand how a person
would not find such things give meaning to their lives.

Indeed, if I required some sort of afterlife or some kind of external
judgment, then I'd consider things meaningless.
  #34  
Old February 24th 17, 02:20 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,824
Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 12:08:54 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in
aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans.


On an individual level, yes. As a species? Not apparent.

In this forum, I challenge those who don't believe in AGW because they
are factually wrong and making pseudoscientific claims in a science
forum. It has nothing to do with the survival of our species, and
everything to do with the problems created by the science denialism
and the inability to use reason and critical thinking.

So it's not "irrelevant" anymore? :-)

It is entirely irrelevant to the original topic. But Gary, and now
you, have shifted to something completely different, which is what I
responded to.


I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is
slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect
you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"?


Same question. If you believe you're going to die, why worry about
anything?

But I fail to understand why the inevitability of my personal death and
of the extinction of the human species in any way alters the meaning I
create for my own life while I am living it.


Have you ever experienced existential angst?


No.

I fail to understand the reasoning that our lives only have meaning if
we are somehow individually immortal.


I can certainly understand the pride in the human race as expressed by
Heinlein, particularly in "Starship Troopers." But you don't seem to
even have that. That's why I'm wondering. What "meaning" do you create?
What keeps you from experiencing existential angst?


Why would I have pride in my species? That makes no sense to me. I can
only take pride in things of my own making. I create my own meaning in
terms of my experiences, my friends and family, the knowledge I
discover, the knowledge I pass on. I can't understand how a person
would not find such things give meaning to their lives.

Indeed, if I required some sort of afterlife or some kind of external
judgment, then I'd consider things meaningless.

Yes!

As Heinlein wrote: "it's a man's business to be what he is and be it in
style"


  #35  
Old February 24th 17, 01:08 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
[email protected]
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Posts: 6
Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 5:15:37 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 12:08:54 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in
aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans.


On an individual level, yes. As a species? Not apparent.


That makes no sense to me. If we had no such aversion many would perish
from suicide and most would perish from neglect, leaving no one. There
is not a single species that behaves that way.

It is entirely irrelevant to the original topic. But Gary, and now
you, have shifted to something completely different, which is what I
responded to.


I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is
slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect
you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"?


Same question. If you believe you're going to die, why worry about
anything?


Ezactly. But we do worry: to prevent immediate harm, to prevent harm to
those we love, to prevent harm to the race.

But I fail to understand why the inevitability of my personal death and
of the extinction of the human species in any way alters the meaning I
create for my own life while I am living it.


Have you ever experienced existential angst?


No.


That's a good thing, I guess.

I fail to understand the reasoning that our lives only have meaning if
we are somehow individually immortal.


I can certainly understand the pride in the human race as expressed by
Heinlein, particularly in "Starship Troopers." But you don't seem to
even have that. That's why I'm wondering. What "meaning" do you create?
What keeps you from experiencing existential angst?


Why would I have pride in my species? That makes no sense to me. I can
only take pride in things of my own making. I create my own meaning in
terms of my experiences, my friends and family, the knowledge I
discover, the knowledge I pass on. I can't understand how a person
would not find such things give meaning to their lives.


I believe they _all_ do.

Indeed, if I required some sort of afterlife or some kind of external
judgment, then I'd consider things meaningless.


In most religions, what one does in this life affects what kind of afterlife
he'll have. That certainly would make "things" meaningful to one rather
than meaningless. OTOH, religions that avow predestination would seem to
fit your prescription.

  #36  
Old February 24th 17, 01:19 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Paul Schlyter[_3_]
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Posts: 1,344
Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 17:15:36 -0700, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
Why would I have pride in my species?


Perhaps because of evolution? A species whose individuals feel proud
might survive better than a species whose individuals do not feel
proud. Perhaps this is the reasons why our species survived while the
neandertals became extinct?

Of course pride can go too far. It needs moderation to not become a
threat ("pride goes before fall" the parable says). Maybe mankind
today is too proud. Maybe that's why we today have a dominant
religion which teaches that humans were created a an image of the
creator (this is taught by Judaism, Christianity and Islam). Maybe
that's why so many people falsely feel that AGW is not a threat.
  #37  
Old February 24th 17, 03:57 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 04:08:21 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in
aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans.


On an individual level, yes. As a species? Not apparent.


That makes no sense to me. If we had no such aversion many would perish
from suicide and most would perish from neglect, leaving no one. There
is not a single species that behaves that way.


That makes no sense. Why would an inbuilt lack of concern for our
species result in suicide or neglect? No species shows a concern for
its own species. We are arguably the only species that even recognizes
the concept. Most animals exhibit behavior directed towards protecting
and propagating their individual genes. Some have extended that to
small family groups. Beyond that, none- including humans- consider
their entire species.

I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is
slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect
you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"?


Same question. If you believe you're going to die, why worry about
anything?


Ezactly. But we do worry: to prevent immediate harm, to prevent harm to
those we love, to prevent harm to the race.


Few are interested in preventing harm to the race. Just look at the
last U.S. election!

I can't speak for you, but I am engaged in life precisely because
there is no afterlife. That's what gives it meaning to me.

Indeed, if I required some sort of afterlife or some kind of external
judgment, then I'd consider things meaningless.


In most religions, what one does in this life affects what kind of afterlife
he'll have. That certainly would make "things" meaningful to one rather
than meaningless.


By deferring judgment, they hinder our ability to find real meaning in
life.
  #38  
Old February 24th 17, 04:01 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 13:19:19 +0100, Paul Schlyter
wrote:

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 17:15:36 -0700, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
Why would I have pride in my species?


Perhaps because of evolution? A species whose individuals feel proud
might survive better than a species whose individuals do not feel
proud. Perhaps this is the reasons why our species survived while the
neandertals became extinct?


There's nothing to suggest that humans take any notice of "species".
Unlike other animals, we at least recognize the concept, but that's
all. We protect our own genes, individually and through our families,
and to a lesser extend through our tribe. The history of humanity is
the story of genocide- we spend vast resources killing or subjugating
other humans who don't share our genes (or who we believe don't share
our genes). This continues today, right up to the U.S. President and
those who elected him.

There is no pride in species. There is no natural inclination to value
humans in general.
  #39  
Old February 24th 17, 05:15 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 4:08:26 AM UTC-8, wrote:


In most religions, what one does in this life affects what kind of afterlife
he'll have. That certainly would make "things" meaningful to one rather
than meaningless. OTOH, religions that avow predestination would seem to
fit your prescription.


What one does indeed !, spirituality is nothing more than the ability to be inspired and be inspiring and those who pass through existence and the transition from childhood to adulthood should gain the appreciation of the connection between the individual and the Universal in physical terms, the connection between an individual human and God in religious terms or where the temporal is encompassed in the Eternal is brief glimpses in spiritual terms.

"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." from a letter of John


Many mistake 'convictions for faith and that is a joyless affair where they meet others like the empiricists who are equally driven by joyless convictions and the racket they produce but it is not so for those who come to realize what Christ and Christianity represents. It is most crucial in physical terms and especially in astronomy where the experience of large scale structures and motions are experienced at a human level.

The mindnumbing pronouncements of the empiricists and many like them as regards the fate of humanity or the planet are meaningless rubbish that tries to substitute for their efforts to bury their inspirational faculties under layers and layers of inherited convictions received through the education system.

Astronomy is perhaps one of the most powerful experiences and a reminder that the individual not only acknowledges the Universal but participates in the great cycles that make existence possible so people can leave 'afterlife' aside and enjoy what they have in any given day.







  #40  
Old February 25th 17, 01:48 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
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Posts: 6
Default Planet near Proxima Centauri (Travel time)

On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 7:57:44 AM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017 04:08:21 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Yes. Basically, they both ignore the fact that humans have a built-in
aversion to self-destruction else there wouldn't be any humans.

On an individual level, yes. As a species? Not apparent.


That makes no sense to me. If we had no such aversion many would perish
from suicide and most would perish from neglect, leaving no one. There
is not a single species that behaves that way.


That makes no sense. Why would an inbuilt lack of concern for our
species result in suicide or neglect? No species shows a concern for
its own species. We are arguably the only species that even recognizes
the concept. Most animals exhibit behavior directed towards protecting
and propagating their individual genes.


I guess I was misunderstanding you. I was saying that there would be no
species if individuals had no aversion to self-destruction.

Some have extended that to small family groups. Beyond that, none


Quite a few extend that to patriotism.

- including humans- consider their entire species.

A few do that, too. Philosophers in particular.

I don't think it is different. If one believes that the human race is
slated for extinction, why worry about AGW? Is it because it may affect
you personally before you "shrug off this mortal coil"?

Same question. If you believe you're going to die, why worry about
anything?


Ezactly. But we do worry: to prevent immediate harm, to prevent harm to
those we love, to prevent harm to the race.


Few are interested in preventing harm to the race. Just look at the
last U.S. election!


That may be _your_ opinion, but others may bellieve they are preserving the
race by voting the way they did.

I can't speak for you, but I am engaged in life precisely because
there is no afterlife. That's what gives it meaning to me.


Eat, drink and be merry?

Indeed, if I required some sort of afterlife or some kind of external
judgment, then I'd consider things meaningless.


In most religions, what one does in this life affects what kind of afterlife
he'll have. That certainly would make "things" meaningful to one rather
than meaningless.


By deferring judgment, they hinder our ability to find real meaning in
life.


Immediate reward and punishment is the way we raise children, but there
were some things I did as a youth that I was never punished for. I now
have no desire to do those things. I believe that deferred judgment
allows us to find our own way and to become who we truly are rather than
be carbon copies of what society wants us to be. Society _does_ judge
us in basic matters but not in a wide variety of experiences.
 




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