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..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 30th 07, 12:17 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 29, 6:58 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"robert casey" wrote in message

...



If our priority is better observation and tracking, and the Chinese
asat test shows earth orbit is not a very safe place, as the
statement indicated with " It no longer takes a sophisticated
adversary to impact space and ground systems..."


Then what is the alternative to "space and ground"?


Themoonis the logical alternative.


Yes, theMoonwould be hard to take out with an ASAT, but it's rather
too far away...


Putin mentioned possible missile defense bases
on themoon. Here's a quote by the NY Times from
a couple of years ago.

"Last March, Luan Enjie, director of the China National
Aerospace Administration, described theMoonas
''the focal point wherein future aerospace powers
contend for strategic resources.''

Do I need to explain what stategic means? And these
quotes were from before the Chinese asat test. When
we still thought we could defend our orbital assets.

''TheMoonis a beachhead,'' said Alice Slater, director
of the Global Resource Action Center for the Environment,
a private group in New York. ''It's the high ground from
which they want to control space'' she said of the
Bush administration."http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802E1DF1039F931A15752...

And if you think I'm equally nuts for claiming we
intend to militarize space, read this quote from
the horses mouth...and this was before Bush.
Before 9/11 and before the Chinese asat test
and before our new aggresive space policy.

"As General Joseph Ashy, then commander in chief
of the US Space Command, put it in 1996: 'It's politically
sensitive, but it's going to happen. Some people don't
want to hear this, and it sure isn't in vogue, but --
absolutely -- we're going to fight in space. We're going
to fight from space and we're going to fight into space.
' Ashy spoke of 'space control,' the US military's term
for controlling space, and space force application,' its
definition for dominating Earth from space. Said General Ashy:
'We'll expand into these two missions because they will
become increasingly important. We will engage terrestrial
targets someday -- ships, airplanes, land targets -- from space.
We will engage targets in space, from space.'"http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2465/is_2_31/ai_71634855/pg_5

What do you guys need, a picture of a room full of
generals pointing to a picture of themoon? With the
caption reading.....place military base here?

This is not a hard case to make.


Actually the moon's L1 with its tethered LSE-CM/ISS and dipole element
that can safely reach to within 2r of mother Earth (closer if you'd
dare) is a physics done deal, except that it's also a first come first
served consideration that China isn't all that likely to pass up.
- Brad Guth -

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  #32  
Old October 30th 07, 12:40 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:32:57 -0500, in a place far, far away,
"Jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:


"Matt Wiser" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan" wrote:

(mindless drivel snipped)

Boy, your wacko-meter is pretty high, I'd say. Did you escape out of the

same lunatic
asylum that the Guthball fled? If so, their security has a lot to be

desired. Join the other
conspiro-wackos, 9-11 "truthers", cheerleaders for the enemy, and other

assorted crazies in
my killfile, if you don't mind. PLONK.



So you don't think going back to the moon is
about missile defense....or military objectives?


No one who is familiar with physics, and sane, thinks that.
  #33  
Old October 30th 07, 01:50 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china
kT
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Posts: 5,032
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) RepeatingItself

Rand Simberg wrote:
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:32:57 -0500, in a place far, far away,
"Jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

"Matt Wiser" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan" wrote:
(mindless drivel snipped)

Boy, your wacko-meter is pretty high, I'd say. Did you escape out of the

same lunatic
asylum that the Guthball fled? If so, their security has a lot to be

desired. Join the other
conspiro-wackos, 9-11 "truthers", cheerleaders for the enemy, and other

assorted crazies in
my killfile, if you don't mind. PLONK.


So you don't think going back to the moon is
about missile defense....or military objectives?


No one who is familiar with physics, and sane, thinks that.


Actually, now I'm growing kind of fond of Jonathan's idea of raining
gigantic lunar boulder's down upon the world's cities. Consider it to be
an 'improvement' over the existing cities. Call it 'urban renewal'.

On the other hand, I would think the moon would be an ideal place for
locating space based asteroid interceptors, to save the pathetic cities.
  #34  
Old October 30th 07, 01:51 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 30, 5:50 am, kT wrote:
Rand Simberg wrote:
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:32:57 -0500, in a place far, far away,
"Jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:


"Matt Wiser" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan" wrote:
(mindless drivel snipped)


Boy, your wacko-meter is pretty high, I'd say. Did you escape out of the
same lunatic
asylum that the Guthball fled? If so, their security has a lot to be
desired. Join the other
conspiro-wackos, 9-11 "truthers", cheerleaders for the enemy, and other
assorted crazies in
my killfile, if you don't mind. PLONK.


So you don't think going back to the moon is
about missile defense....or military objectives?


No one who is familiar with physics, and sane, thinks that.


Actually, now I'm growing kind of fond of Jonathan's idea of raining
gigantic lunar boulder's down upon the world's cities. Consider it to be
an 'improvement' over the existing cities. Call it 'urban renewal'.

On the other hand, I would think the moon would be an ideal place for
locating space based asteroid interceptors, to save the pathetic cities.


Actually the moon's L1 is still the best NEO defense alternative,
especially as accommodating those multigigawatt laser cannons, or on
behalf of NEO interceptors that are efficiently launched away from my
LSE-CM/ISS of 256e6 tonnes worth of such a nifty tethered space depot/
gateway. The moon itself needs to be used as our NEO pincushion.
- Brad Guth -

  #35  
Old October 30th 07, 07:27 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Damien Valentine
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Posts: 273
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 27, 8:06 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
First Bush and his Vision to the moon, then Japan, India
and now China all gearing up to go back to the moon.
...The same reason for Apollo, we were in a ....military...race
with the Soviets.


On the other hand, what has humanity done in space since the end of
the Cold War? Well...we've put up one-and-a-half space stations,
we've got a half-assed heavy booster (which wasn't too reliable to
start with; now it's apparently falling apart at the seams), and
occassionally we've got a billionaire renting some space on the half-
station for a few days.

I say bring on the new Space Race. At least something will happen.

  #36  
Old October 30th 07, 07:40 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 30, 11:27 am, Damien Valentine wrote:
On Oct 27, 8:06 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

First Bush and his Vision to the moon, then Japan, India
and now China all gearing up to go back to the moon.
...The same reason for Apollo, we were in a ....military...race
with the Soviets.


On the other hand, what has humanity done in space since the end of
the Cold War? Well...we've put up one-and-a-half space stations,
we've got a half-assed heavy booster (which wasn't too reliable to
start with; now it's apparently falling apart at the seams), and
occassionally we've got a billionaire renting some space on the half-
station for a few days.

I say bring on the new Space Race. At least something will happen.


I 100% agree, that it's certainly a whole lot better off than having
the likes of Japan, China and India making WMD for a living, or much
less that of our clear intentions of putting nukes in space.

At least while we're busy getting those innocent Muslims traumatised
or dead, and otherwise insuring the maximum possible cost for fossil
and yellowcake fuel, whereas perhaps Japan, China and India can set
those new and improved physics and science standards that'll only
benefit humanity, and perhaps even allow some viable degree of
progress towards repairing our badly failing environment and/or
advancing our human DNA via intelligent design towards becoming a
whole lot more rad-hard.
- Brad Guth -

  #37  
Old October 30th 07, 08:56 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 30, 4:40 am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:32:57 -0500, in a place far, far away,
"Jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:







"Matt Wiser" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan" wrote:


(mindless drivel snipped)


Boy, your wacko-meter is pretty high, I'd say. Did you escape out of the

same lunatic
asylum that the Guthball fled? If so, their security has a lot to be

desired. Join the other
conspiro-wackos, 9-11 "truthers", cheerleaders for the enemy, and other

assorted crazies in
my killfile, if you don't mind. PLONK.


So you don't think going back to the moon is
about missile defense....or military objectives?


No one who is familiar with physics, and sane, thinks that.


What makes you think the likes of our resident LLPOF warlord(GW Bush)
is sane?

Was putting Christ on a stick for a Zion faith-based PR stunt "sane"?
- Brad Guth -

  #38  
Old October 31st 07, 12:00 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Jonathan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 705
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself


"Damien Valentine" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 27, 8:06 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
First Bush and his Vision to the moon, then Japan, India
and now China all gearing up to go back to the moon.
...The same reason for Apollo, we were in a ....military...race
with the Soviets.


On the other hand, what has humanity done in space since the end of
the Cold War? Well...we've put up one-and-a-half space stations,
we've got a half-assed heavy booster (which wasn't too reliable to
start with; now it's apparently falling apart at the seams), and
occassionally we've got a billionaire renting some space on the half-
station for a few days.

I say bring on the new Space Race. At least something will happen.



China will be a democracy, and no longer a threat, long before
we have people stationed on the moon. But by then the
program will have spent itself into a committment like
the ISS. We're still building the ISS even though the
original purpose for it has been entirely abandoned.

The new purpose for the ISS, supporting the moon
shots, will also be abandoned too in time.
Leaving nothing really to show for all the effort.

Having military needs driving the civilian space
program is a contradiction, one is meant to
build, the other destroy.

We'll end up with a massively expensive program
that delivers about as much as the ISS.

Aa space station and moon base 'to nowhere'.

NASA could be do much more., we shouldn't
settle for whatever Lockheed and other
big friends of Bush/Cheney want.

NASA is a stocking stuffer for those guys.
Nothing more.





  #39  
Old October 31st 07, 12:50 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Jonathan
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Posts: 705
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself


"BradGuth" wrote in message
ups.com...


BTW, any WWIII task will only be accomplished by an all out first
strike effort, and if it were launched from the tethered platform
that's merely 2r from the core of Earth (that distance being 6371 km
from Earth's surface) is not such a great fly-by-rocket distance to
travel, especially when having the gravity assist of Earth working on
behalf of those items launched towards Earth, which should arrive
within less than 10 minutes.



If' you'll read the Space Command pdd I just posted, you'll
see they see the potential of L points also. Scroll down to
page 30 and below, they have the orbits all plotted out.

http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/libra...rden_Simon.pdf






- Brad Guth -


  #40  
Old October 31st 07, 06:29 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 30, 4:00 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"Damien Valentine" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Oct 27, 8:06 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
First Bush and his Vision to the moon, then Japan, India
and now China all gearing up to go back to the moon.
...The same reason for Apollo, we were in a ....military...race
with the Soviets.


On the other hand, what has humanity done in space since the end of
the Cold War? Well...we've put up one-and-a-half space stations,
we've got a half-assed heavy booster (which wasn't too reliable to
start with; now it's apparently falling apart at the seams), and
occassionally we've got a billionaire renting some space on the half-
station for a few days.


I say bring on the new Space Race. At least something will happen.


China will be a democracy, and no longer a threat, long before
we have people stationed on the moon. But by then the
program will have spent itself into a committment like
the ISS. We're still building the ISS even though the
original purpose for it has been entirely abandoned.


Too bad the likes of our spendy ISS couldn't have been placed into the
moon's L1, as sort of Clarke Station worthy and efficiently station-
keeping itself within that interactive zone that's always between
Earth and our salty and dirty old moon that's so freaking gamma and X-
ray nasty so much of the time.
- Brad Guth -

 




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