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..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 28th 07, 07:31 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Brian Thorn[_2_]
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Posts: 2,266
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:57:46 -0500, "Jonathan"
wrote:


Sorry, but this project is Lockheeds show, it's their baby.
And Lockheed IS the military industrial complex.
Why are such simple facts and reasoning beyond you?


Just friendly advice, Jonathan:
Take a break. You've gone completely bonkers.

Come back in a week or two when your sanity has returned.

Brian
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  #12  
Old October 28th 07, 08:42 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china
Jorge R. Frank
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Posts: 2,089
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) RepeatingItself

JF Mezei wrote:
Jonathan wrote:
The space race to the moon isn't about us, it's
about power. It's a military race. Are you folks
that ignorant about politics? Or are you just
afraid to think for yourself?


Heard an interesting comment the other day:

Imagine if China lands in the same place as Apollo 11, plants the
chinese flag there, picks up the USA flag and returns it to earth and
then sells it on ebay.


The US would request that eBay halt the auction on the grounds that the
flag was stolen, and eBay would comply.

The Outer Space Treaty states that artifacts in space remain the
property of the launching nation. Both the US and China have ratified it.

Counterarguments based on marine salvage law are inapplicable.
  #13  
Old October 28th 07, 09:58 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Scott Hedrick[_2_]
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Posts: 1,159
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself


"macruzq" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hey, hey! Calm down! Moon is TOO FAR to launch a missile. It is not
practical. Missiles or any weapons installed on the Moon is simply a
stupid idea.


Even a full-up Atlas V couldn't push New Horizons any faster than a 6 hour
trip to the moon. Since flight time for a nuclear bomb is at most on the
order of a half-hour, "Jonathan" just proves once again he's a kid with
access to his mommie's computer.


  #14  
Old October 28th 07, 10:44 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Joe Strout
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Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

In article ,
"Jonathan" wrote:

"Joe Strout" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Jonathan" wrote:

First Bush and his Vision to the moon, then Japan, India
and now China all gearing up to go back to the moon.

WHY?

The same reason for Apollo, we were in a ....military...race
with the Soviets. The Cold War. Now....the reason everyone
is going back to the moon???

MISSILE DEFENSE.


Is it just me, or is everyone else's kook meter starting to swing harder
at Jonathan's postings too?


Which is it? If you disagree with my characterization
of our space policy, how so, and why?


Because, Jonathan, the Moon is useless for missile defense. Absolutely
useless. Has no use for it whatsoever. None. To think that it does
displays such a deeply profound ignorance that one hardly knows where to
begin to correct it.

Now, a merely ignorant but otherwise reasonable person might post a
query like, "Hey, could it be the superpowers are planning on using the
Moon for missile defense?" At which point we'd all politely reply "No,
Newbie, the Moon is much too far away; kinetic countermeasures launched
from there would miss their targets by half a day or more, and optical
ones would have far too much spread to be effective." At which point,
the reasonable newbie would say "Oh, I see, thanks for the explanation."

But you didn't do this. Instead, you posted alarmist nonsense about
MISSILE DEFENSE (caps original), and when rebuttals are put forth, you
ignore them and reply with insults, irrelevant news quotes, and dark
hints of conspiracies.

It's a bit sad to see, because you weren't always like this. Brad Guth,
as far as I've been aware of him, has always been a nutball. But you
were a reasonable newbie a couple years ago, with a simple passion for
space solar power, which in itself is not unreasonable. But now you've
gone off the deep end, alas.

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/
  #15  
Old October 29th 07, 01:31 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
robert casey
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Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) RepeatingItself

The Moon's a lousy place to park your nuke bomb missiles. It's a lot
quicker, cheaper and more convenient to use submarines as nuke launching
platforms. Submarines are easily hidden, and they rarely break radio
silence, and they can be ordered (the subs receive only) to sail to the
enemy's coastal areas and take out a few cities or mil targets. You can
buy a lot of submarines for the cost of a few Moon missions.
  #16  
Old October 29th 07, 01:44 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Craig Fink
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Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

robert casey wrote:

The Moon's a lousy place to park your nuke bomb missiles


Nukes are old technology, they should be bannned. There are much "Greener"
weapons, to .... wipe .... a .... ... few ... . ...... ...
billion ........or ... so ...... . .. . . .. ..... . .....

You have to decide at some point, R U A peaceful person?
  #17  
Old October 29th 07, 02:42 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Paul Foley
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Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) RepeatingItself

Jonathan wrote:

First Bush and his Vision to the moon, then Japan, India
and now China all gearing up to go back to the moon.

WHY?


I can see why India might like to send astronauts to the moon. For
them, it would be a big deal to demonstrate that they are as
technologically advanced as the US was 30 years ago.

The same reason applies to China. Plus, they've got to find something
to spend all those billions on that we've been sending them in exchange
for keeping the shelves filled at Toys-R-Us and Circuit City.

You'd think the Japanese would have more sense.

I wouldn't expect George Bush to have any sense, hence his "vision".



"To the moon, Alice. Right to the moon!"
--Ralph Kramden
  #18  
Old October 29th 07, 03:03 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
BradGuth
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Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 27, 8:35 pm, Matt wrote:
On Oct 27, 9:59 pm, BradGuth wrote:





On Oct 27, 8:42 pm, macruzq wrote:


On Oct 27, 10:06 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:


First Bush and his Vision to the moon, then Japan, India
and now China all gearing up to go back to the moon.


WHY?


The same reason for Apollo, we were in a ....military...race
with the Soviets. The Cold War. Now....the reason everyone
is going back to the moon???


MISSILE DEFENSE.


So, I guess after another FIFTY GODDAMMED YEARS
we'll end up with nothing more to show than the last
FIFTY YEARS IN SPACE.


Lots of really cool..very..expensive weapons we'll probably
never use. And a bunch of completely useless hardware
lying about on the moon.


Just like the ISS, the Grand Accomplishment of the last
FIFTY YEARS in space.


What a ****ing... excuse my lanquage, but it's so incredibly
infuriating to think about, no other word will do....
..what a ****ing waste.


Hey, hey! Calm down! Moon is TOO FAR to launch a missile. It is not
practical. Missiles or any weapons installed on the Moon is simply a
stupid idea.


But as easily deployed from the moon's L1 isn't exactly half bad.
- Brad Guth -- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Interceptor missiles launched from the moon or L1 would take hours to
reach near-Earth space - that's hopelessly too slow to affect a
ballistic missile attack from one point on Earth to another. Lasers or
other directed energy beams would spread too much at that range. No
one will put offensive missiles in such places, either: the enormous
effort of hauling the things up there is worthless given that a war
using Earth-based ballistic missiles will be over before missiles
needing (at best) hours to reach Earth can have any effect.


I agree, but a tethered platform of those nifty gigaWatt laser cannons
could rather easily be established to reach within 2r of Earth, and in
space there's not all that much beam divergence. Besides, a swarm of
nuclear warheads as incoming from the moon's L1 would be next to
impossible to divert or kill off any sufficient number before it's too
late, especially since many of those items could be of dirt cheap
phony decoys (perhaps made in China or India).

Actually, the fly-by-rocket task of getting loads of nifty stuff into
the moon's L1 orbit isn't all that spendy, especially if you're not in
any hurry for getting stuff there in the first place.
- Brad Guth -

  #19  
Old October 29th 07, 03:06 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
Neil Gerace[_2_]
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Posts: 309
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 29, 9:42 am, Paul Foley wrote:

I can see why India might like to send astronauts to the moon. For
them, it would be a big deal to demonstrate that they are as
technologically advanced as the US was 30 years ago.


30 years ago, in 1977, the US would have found it utterly
impossible :-)



  #20  
Old October 29th 07, 04:08 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default ..New Space-Race to the Moon..History is (Tragically) Repeating Itself

On Oct 28, 6:03 pm, BradGuth wrote:
On Oct 27, 8:35 pm, Matt wrote:





On Oct 27, 9:59 pm, BradGuth wrote:


On Oct 27, 8:42 pm, macruzq wrote:


On Oct 27, 10:06 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:


First Bush and his Vision to the moon, then Japan, India
and now China all gearing up to go back to the moon.


WHY?


The same reason for Apollo, we were in a ....military...race
with the Soviets. The Cold War. Now....the reason everyone
is going back to the moon???


MISSILE DEFENSE.


So, I guess after another FIFTY GODDAMMED YEARS
we'll end up with nothing more to show than the last
FIFTY YEARS IN SPACE.


Lots of really cool..very..expensive weapons we'll probably
never use. And a bunch of completely useless hardware
lying about on the moon.


Just like the ISS, the Grand Accomplishment of the last
FIFTY YEARS in space.


What a ****ing... excuse my lanquage, but it's so incredibly
infuriating to think about, no other word will do....
..what a ****ing waste.


Hey, hey! Calm down! Moon is TOO FAR to launch a missile. It is not
practical. Missiles or any weapons installed on the Moon is simply a
stupid idea.


But as easily deployed from the moon's L1 isn't exactly half bad.
- Brad Guth -- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Interceptor missiles launched from the moon or L1 would take hours to
reach near-Earth space - that's hopelessly too slow to affect a
ballistic missile attack from one point on Earth to another. Lasers or
other directed energy beams would spread too much at that range. No
one will put offensive missiles in such places, either: the enormous
effort of hauling the things up there is worthless given that a war
using Earth-based ballistic missiles will be over before missiles
needing (at best) hours to reach Earth can have any effect.


I agree, but a tethered platform of those nifty gigaWatt laser cannons
could rather easily be established to reach within 2r of Earth, and in
space there's not all that much beam divergence. Besides, a swarm of
nuclear warheads as incoming from the moon's L1 would be next to
impossible to divert or kill off any sufficient number before it's too
late, especially since many of those items could be of dirt cheap
phony decoys (perhaps made in China or India).

Actually, the fly-by-rocket task of getting loads of nifty stuff into
the moon's L1 orbit isn't all that spendy, especially if you're not in
any hurry for getting stuff there in the first place.
- Brad Guth -


BTW, any WWIII task will only be accomplished by an all out first
strike effort, and if it were launched from the tethered platform
that's merely 2r from the core of Earth (that distance being 6371 km
from Earth's surface) is not such a great fly-by-rocket distance to
travel, especially when having the gravity assist of Earth working on
behalf of those items launched towards Earth, which should arrive
within less than 10 minutes.
- Brad Guth -

 




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