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Moon Laws



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 8th 07, 04:03 PM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
Logan Kearsley[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Moon Laws

"Space Cadet" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Oct 7, 1:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote:
Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have
to
agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare
themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off".
Or,
if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop
the
originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from
those
that operate in their territory on Earth.


-l.
------------------------------------
My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy.


I'm guessing, who their Sovereignecy(sp) be reconized by anyone
else? Since the formation of the UN, has there be a case of a former
colony declaring itself independence? What mechanisms are in place at
the UN to reconize a new country. The only new country that comes
mind off the top of my head is Israel and there has been 'some'
controversy over its formation ;^)


Why does it matter if the UN recognizes them?
OK, sure, it might be a practical problem if they get reconquered, or if
they need things from Earth and no one will supply them. But even then, they
could be effectively independent for, oh, probably a week, at least.

-l.
------------------------------------
My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy.


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  #12  
Old October 8th 07, 04:27 PM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
John Schilling
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Posts: 391
Default Moon Laws

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:09:05 +0100, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:

"Space Cadet" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi All
Got this email from a friend of mine:


Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on
Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws,
bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU
include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks,


My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that
the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible
for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country
would apply to said object?
Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That
company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws
apply to that country would apply to the colony?
What about an international colony, would it be the country that funds
most of the colony? Or do international laws/treaties apply hear?
What is the setup for ISS?


Just my $0.02


Space Cadet



Given that any puncture of a habitat or space suit is potentially fatal for
all inhabitants, I'd definitely include in the constitution or body of law a
ban on private ownership of firearms.



Didn't we just have this discussion? A puncture of a habitat is only
"potentially fatal for all inhabitants" if you assume the inhabitants
are going to spend the next couple of days doing absolutely nothing
whatsoever about it. So, if you were administering a Terrestrial city,
would you insist on a ban on private ownership of matches?

I'm guessing no, but that you'd still be in favor of the ban on firearms.
Again, the legal and political environment in any future space colonies
is going to have a *lot* more to do with the people who decide to set up
the colony, than the nature of the colonial environment. Whatever laws
you want to impose on your neighbors, you'll find a reason to say those
law are particularly appropriate for your space colony.


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
* for success" *
*661-718-0955 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
  #13  
Old October 8th 07, 05:04 PM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
Crown-Horned Snorkack
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 125
Default Moon Laws

On 8 okt, 16:09, Fred J. McCall wrote:
BernardZ wrote:

:
:Worst case the company could pick the country that it was based on like
:ships do today.
:

In the case of space, that doesn't save you unless all your people are
willing to give up their citizenship.

Really? Why?

Suppose that someone sets up a Liberian space ship. Some of the
passengers, employees and investors are citizens of countries other
than Liberia.

Presumably, if the rules on board the spaceship or in Moon colony are
felt to be unfair to some of those involved, the consul of their
native country in Liberia can complain to Liberian government and ask
the Liberian government to enforce their laws.

Whereas if those involved have given up their citizenship and become
Liberian naturalized citizens, they have no consuls to protect them,
but they can themselves complain to Liberian government...

  #14  
Old October 8th 07, 09:49 PM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
Mike Dworetsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 715
Default Moon Laws

"David Johnston" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:09:05 +0100, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:

"Space Cadet" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi All
Got this email from a friend of mine:

Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on
Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution,
laws,
bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU
include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks,

My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that
the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible
for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country
would apply to said object?
Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That
company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws
apply to that country would apply to the colony?
What about an international colony, would it be the country that funds
most of the colony? Or do international laws/treaties apply hear?
What is the setup for ISS?


Just my $0.02

Space Cadet

derwetzelsDASHspacecadetATyahooDOTcom


Moon Society - St. Louis Chapter

http://www.moonsociety.org/chapters/stlouis/

The Moon Society is a non-profit educational and
scientific foundation formed to further scientific
study and development of the moon.


Given that any puncture of a habitat or space suit is potentially fatal
for
all inhabitants, I'd definitely include in the constitution or body of law
a
ban on private ownership of firearms.


And a guarantee of the right to bear swords. Swords are cool.


I was thinking about this, but why not simply have the anti-firearms law and
another law against carrying a concealed weapon. Swords are not concealed,
so....

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

  #15  
Old October 9th 07, 12:14 AM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,465
Default Moon Laws

On Oct 7, 2:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote:
"Space Cadet" wrote in message

ps.com...

Hi All
Got this email from a friend of mine:


Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on
Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution, laws,
bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU
include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks,


My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that
the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible
for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country
would apply to said object?
Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That
company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws
apply to that country would apply to the colony?


Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have to
agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare
themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off".


Well wait a minute most of the people living there will have been born
on Earth,and be from one of the nations that signed the OST. So,its
not quite that easy. And their children, even if born on the moon,
will likely be claimed as citizens from the country their parents were
born in. Sort of like kids born at military bases in other nations.
Children from parents of two different nationalities, who lived on the
moon their whole life,and having offspring - their kids might be able
to make a claim like this - but you can bet the folks on Earth would
have a thing or two to say about it. Especially if they paid for the
infrastructure that kept them alive all those many decades.

Or,
if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop the
originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from those
that operate in their territory on Earth.


Sure, just like Argentina can go out and claim the Falkand Islands
from Britain. Britain wouldn't care about the 90 or so people living
there would they? haha.. NOT

What about an international colony, would it be the country that funds
most of the colony? Or do international laws/treaties apply hear?
What is the setup for ISS?


-l.
------------------------------------
My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy.


The whole thing is set up to deflect any possibility of private
investment in space. This is something nations don't want to worry
about. They would be far happier if the solar system was just a topic
of research and not a new frontier for humanity - and the law reflects
that.

This approach sticks in the craw of all of those who want to leave the
Earth and try something different out in interplanetary space.

The simplest thing to do is figure out how to fund developments in
space propulsion technology that provide fundamental improvements in
cost benefit, and then figure out how to make a continuing profit in
space. Once that's done, then the profits can be used to fund
development. And once you have real development,then you can push for
changes in the current OST given the changing situation in space that
you've created. That's one approach.

Building Nova class resuable launch vehicles that cut the cost of
getting to space to about 3% today's cost will bring about the sort of
changes you seek. This would allow the following infrastructures to
be contemplated that could make a few bucks, that could be plowed back
into space development;

(1) many to many communication satellite network - global wireless
internet
(2) space hotel and space tourism
(3) lunar hotel and lunar tourism
(4) power satellites
(5) lunar bank

Iridium and Teledesic are both attempts at #1, they lacked the
requisite launch capacity at the price they needed to make it work.
But this is still a valid way to go. Space hotel and space tourismis
getting started in small ways now - given the limitations of our
launch infrastructure. Lunar hotel and lunar tourism need an
improvement along the lines i've described to be workable. Low mass
powersats that use solar pumped lasers, rather than microwaves might
be possible with the same launchers that make lunar hotels possible.
Once a permanent base of any sort - even a hotel - is on the moon,a
lunar bank is possible.

None of this requires changing the OST. Since the OST recognizes the
ownership of improvements. And that gives the owners easement on the
underlying property their improvements are built upon.

The lunar bank is something that's a little more clever. Nations
cannot built bases on celestial bodies or have military personnel
operating a base in space. Nations basically have no rights in
space. So, the easement that a hotel operator has on his property on
the moon, because he has rights to the improvements he erected, gives
him pretty much absolute authority to run that hotel or other asset as
he sees fit - providing he doesn't violate the rules spelled out in
the OST.

He's sort of like a ship flying the flag of a country of his choosing
navigating international waters. Except the ship never comes back to
home port. And many of the laws of the sea that constrain a ship in
international waters - do not apply.

So, the hotel operator could offer a wide range of services and
products, that might be illegal to offer in his home country,or any
home country.

The most profitable of these would be banking services. The most
valued would be a place for former dictators and so forth to retire
to.

With global communications satellites and reliable digital signalling
to a banking computer on the moon, a lunar bank could provide a wide
range of banking and insurance services from virtual branches in the
global wireless broadband service - and basically create a micro-
banking version of the major international banks that operate in tax
havens throughout the world.

In this way trillions of dollars could be deposited in the lunar bank
and the availability of liquid assets would provide a great deal of
stability out of all proportion to the size of the lunar colony or its
population. Fewer than 7 million people live in Switzerland but that
nation by virtue of its banking laws and status as a tax haven hold
the majority of the assets of 7 billion.

A lunar bank could be set up with little more than a grounded solar
powered communication satellite with perhaps an inflatable hut nearby
- which would grow in power and prestige as time went on and the hut
grew to a collection of outbuildings and a town a village and
ultimately a great metropolis.

This could all be done without mining the moon or violating the treaty
in any way.

Just as the fellow who was not permitted to leave the Paris Airport
was a man without a country because he didn't want to return to his
native land, so too, could people who renounce their birth citizen
ship and do not seek to be citizens of any other nation, could live in
limbo at the colony - and be the first lunar citizens. Like the first
settlers at Botany Bay they may be the most successful and notorious
criminals of the age, but their offspring will be the citizens of a
new off-world Republic of the Moon. And they will definitely have
claim that they didn't sign the OST in the middle fo the 20th century.



  #16  
Old October 9th 07, 12:47 AM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
Logan Kearsley[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Moon Laws

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 7, 2:40 pm, "Logan Kearsley" wrote:
"Space Cadet" wrote in message

ps.com...

Hi All
Got this email from a friend of mine:


Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on
Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution,
laws,
bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU
include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks,


My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that
the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible
for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country
would apply to said object?
Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That
company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws
apply to that country would apply to the colony?


Yes, but... that doesn't mean that the people living in the colony have
to
agree with the Earthlings who signed that treaty. They could just declare
themselves soveriegn and say "*we* never signed the OST, so bugger off".


Well wait a minute most of the people living there will have been born
on Earth,and be from one of the nations that signed the OST. So,its


Yes. So? Most of them probably wouldn't *want* to declare independence;
there are lots of very good practical reasons *not* to. But there's nothing
to stop them from doing so if they *did* want to. There's nothing magical or
more special about nations than any other group of people that causes them
to exist on their own or by Authoritative Permission of someone else.

not quite that easy. And their children, even if born on the moon,
will likely be claimed as citizens from the country their parents were
born in. Sort of like kids born at military bases in other nations.


Why should they care if some other nation considers them to be citizens? It
just means they get double citizenship for free.

Children from parents of two different nationalities, who lived on the
moon their whole life,and having offspring - their kids might be able
to make a claim like this - but you can bet the folks on Earth would
have a thing or two to say about it. Especially if they paid for the
infrastructure that kept them alive all those many decades.

Or,
if they don't form an independent nation, there's still nothing to stop
the
originating nation from passing new space-specific laws different from
those
that operate in their territory on Earth.


Sure, just like Argentina can go out and claim the Falkand Islands
from Britain. Britain wouldn't care about the 90 or so people living
there would they? haha.. NOT


You seem to be responding to the wrong part of my post there. It would be
more like England saying that people in the New World colonies have to pay
some extra taxes that those in England itself do not. Except we're talking
about much more than just tax law here.

You might make that analogy in the case of the colony declaring itself
independent. And indeed, you will see that I later said:

OK, sure, it might be a practical problem if they get reconquered, or if
they need things from Earth and no one will supply them. But even then,
they
could be effectively independent for, oh, probably a week, at least.


There's nothing to stop them from doing the claiming and making their own
laws. And the reconquering would be rather more expensive than war in the
Falklands, unless you have the option to just starve them out.

-l.
------------------------------------
My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy.


  #17  
Old October 9th 07, 01:12 AM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
Alan Anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 335
Default Moon Laws

In article ,
David Johnston wrote:

...For example, laws against wasting air
or failing to use all the handholds when descending a vertical tube
(because you might pick up too much speed and collide with someone
below you.)


You can't legislate away stupidity or recklessness.

The only sure-fire way to prevent people from "wasting air" is to make
sure air is not a common resource, and that people will not be able to
breathe air they do not own.
  #18  
Old October 9th 07, 01:53 AM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
Fred J. McCall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,736
Default Moon Laws

Crown-Horned Snorkack wrote:

:On 8 okt, 16:09, Fred J. McCall wrote:
: BernardZ wrote:
:
: :
: :Worst case the company could pick the country that it was based on like
: :ships do today.
: :
:
: In the case of space, that doesn't save you unless all your people are
: willing to give up their citizenship.
:
:
:Really? Why?
:

Because many countries (like the US) sort of require it, since they
are still going to be responsible for the actions of THEIR citizens.
If they're going to be responsible, they want to control the company.

:
:Suppose that someone sets up a Liberian space ship. Some of the
assengers, employees and investors are citizens of countries other
:than Liberia.
:
:Presumably, if the rules on board the spaceship or in Moon colony are
:felt to be unfair to some of those involved, the consul of their
:native country in Liberia can complain to Liberian government and ask
:the Liberian government to enforce their laws.
:
:Whereas if those involved have given up their citizenship and become
:Liberian naturalized citizens, they have no consuls to protect them,
:but they can themselves complain to Liberian government...
:

The law isn't about protecting the individuals. It's about
responsibility for actions that are essentially 'extra-territorial'.
If a Mongolian crewman does something on your Liberian spaceship that
leads to a couple of buildings getting smashed, who is responsible?

Hint: It doesn't work like ships, where the flag nation is
automatically responsible.


--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer
  #19  
Old October 9th 07, 02:06 AM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
Fred J. McCall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,736
Default Moon Laws

"Mike Dworetsky" wrote:

:"David Johnston" wrote in message
.. .
: On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:09:05 +0100, "Mike Dworetsky"
: wrote:
:
:"Space Cadet" wrote in message
roups.com...
: Hi All
: Got this email from a friend of mine:
:
:Hi all, I am working on a new lesson for my second graders focusing on
:Moon Laws. If YOU were given the task of creating a constitution,
:laws,
:bill of rights for people in a future lunar colony what would YOU
:include? I'd love to have your input! Thanks,
:
: My first thought is that doesn't the OST say or at least imply that
: the country that launches an object/probe/spacecraft is responsible
: for said object? And whatever rule of law applies to that country
: would apply to said object?
: Even if you would go with a privately funded moon colony. That
: company would be based on some nation on Earth, and whatever laws
: apply to that country would apply to the colony?
: What about an international colony, would it be the country that funds
: most of the colony? Or do international laws/treaties apply hear?
: What is the setup for ISS?
:
:
: Just my $0.02
:
: Space Cadet
:
: derwetzelsDASHspacecadetATyahooDOTcom
:
:
: Moon Society - St. Louis Chapter
:
: http://www.moonsociety.org/chapters/stlouis/
:
: The Moon Society is a non-profit educational and
: scientific foundation formed to further scientific
: study and development of the moon.
:
:
:Given that any puncture of a habitat or space suit is potentially fatal
:for
:all inhabitants, I'd definitely include in the constitution or body of law
:a
:ban on private ownership of firearms.
:
: And a guarantee of the right to bear swords. Swords are cool.
:
:I was thinking about this, but why not simply have the anti-firearms law and
:another law against carrying a concealed weapon. Swords are not concealed,
:so....
:

Ok. I'll be the guy with the hand grenade. It's not concealed and
it's not a firearm....


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #20  
Old October 9th 07, 03:44 AM posted to sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.station
Howard Brazee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 261
Default Moon Laws

On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 21:49:53 +0100, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:

I was thinking about this, but why not simply have the anti-firearms law and
another law against carrying a concealed weapon. Swords are not concealed,
so....


Where was it that I read where some guy tried unsuccessfully to
persuade the cop that the scabbard didn't conceal his sword?
 




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