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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
The Most Clever Ideas For Vehicles to Explore Saturn's Moon Titan:
"Forget a boring old rover and try nuclear-powered boats or quadcopter space drones. If we want to explore Saturn's moon Titan--with its liquid methane lakes and dense nitrogen atmosphere--we'll need exploration schemes that are just as unique as the alien moon itself." See: http://gizmodo.com/the-most-bizarre-...rns-1686199778 Note: This article covers more than just the submarine idea. |
#13
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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 at 3:04:21 AM UTC-5, wrote:
The Most Clever Ideas For Vehicles to Explore Saturn's Moon Titan: "Forget a boring old rover and try nuclear-powered boats or quadcopter space drones. If we want to explore Saturn's moon Titan--with its liquid methane lakes and dense nitrogen atmosphere--we'll need exploration schemes that are just as unique as the alien moon itself." See: http://gizmodo.com/the-most-bizarre-...rns-1686199778 Note: This article covers more than just the submarine idea. And the most obvious fuel to bring along? Just a tank of O2! Rocket not needed just a jet engine fueled with a little O2. So can anyone given an informed opinion on how to change a jet engine for optimal performance in a *thane rich environment where the OXIDIZER is the rare chemical? Dave |
#14
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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 at 11:15:32 AM UTC-5, David Spain wrote:
On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 at 3:04:21 AM UTC-5, wrote: The Most Clever Ideas For Vehicles to Explore Saturn's Moon Titan: "Forget a boring old rover and try nuclear-powered boats or quadcopter space drones. If we want to explore Saturn's moon Titan--with its liquid methane lakes and dense nitrogen atmosphere--we'll need exploration schemes that are just as unique as the alien moon itself." See: http://gizmodo.com/the-most-bizarre-...rns-1686199778 Note: This article covers more than just the submarine idea. And the most obvious fuel to bring along? Just a tank of O2! Rocket not needed just a jet engine fueled with a little O2. So can anyone given an informed opinion on how to change a jet engine for optimal performance in a *thane rich environment where the OXIDIZER is the rare chemical? Dave In fact I can't help but think about what a fascinating and incredibly dangerous feat it would be to set up a Titan environmental test chamber just to test such an engine! This is so incredibly fascinating. No Junior high schooler science junky could help NOT be fatally attracted to such a test chamber! What you need is to couple that enthusiasm with the adult supervision of a respected collegiate fluid dynamics laboratory. Running a jet engine in this kind of environment, in a reverse cycle, fuel rich, oxidizer starved? And how would the combustion products effect the remaining fuel err, I mean atmosphere? Dave |
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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 8:08:33 AM UTC+13, wrote:
"Now that NASA has got the hang of planetary rovers, the space agency is looking at sending submarines into space around the year 2040. At the recent 2015 NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts (NIAC) Symposium in Cocoa Beach, Florida, NASA scientists and engineers presented a study of the Titan Submarine Phase I Conceptual Design, which outlines a possible mission to Saturn's largest moon, Titan, where the unmanned submersible would explore the seas of liquid hydrocarbons at the Titanian poles." See: http://www.gizmag.com/nasa-titan-sub...concept/35960/ Cornell proposed a submarine for Europa several years back; http://www.space.com/14997-jupiter-e...ine-robot.html https://science.house.gov/sites/repu...11_Squyres.pdf Tidal forces keep the interior of Europa quite warm. The largest impact structures are Europa are surrounded by concentric rings and filled with fresh ice. From this astronomers know the outer crust of ice is 30 km (19 miles) thick. Beneath that icy crust lives a liquid ocean underneath that's 100 km (60 mi) deep! This means that the volume of Europa's oceans of 3e18 m3, (3e21 kg) more than two times the volume of Earth's oceans! And because of the effect of the freeze thaw cycle, mostly FRESH water! The mass of Europa is 4.8e22 kg. With a surface gravity of 0.134 gees (less than the moon) and an escape velocity of 2.025 km/sec. A kg of ice projected from Europa requires 2.03 MJ. A kg of ice boiled to form steam requires 4.40 MJ. http://www.nss.org/settlement/Coloni...es_chap09.html http://settlement.arc.nasa.gov/75Sum...y/table5.3.gif With 42,000,000 kg of water for 10,000 persons - this is 4,200 kg of water per person to maintain them in space. 210,000,000 kg - structure 488,000,000 kg - internals 42,000,000 kg - water 9,900,000,000 kg - shielding (waste rock). Dividing by 10,000 persons we have 21,000 kg - structure 48,800 kg - internals 4,200 kg - water 990,000 kg - shielding (waste rock) 3e21 kg of water on Europa translates to a population of 7.14e17 people. This requires 7.57e23 kg of rock to be processed to extract the other requirements. The mass of Europa is 4.8e22 kg - is 1/15th the mass required. To make use of all the water in a Stanford Torus requires something the size of Mars PLUS something the size of Callisto, along with the rocky parts of Europa, to meet the needs this this level of construction. 71.4 trillion stations are required. Orbiting at the same distance from the Sun as Mars, and pointing the spin axis of each station radially toward the Sun, allows 795.8 million stations to ring the Sun and to accomodate all 71.4 trillion stations requires a band 70,000 above and below Mars' orbital plane! 7.14e17 people is 100 million more people than are alive today! Unconstrained population growth of 1.14% per year achieves this tremendous level of population by 3640 AD. |
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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
It's Time to Go Alien Hunting on Titan:
"Move over Europa, there's another moon out to claim the title of first place we'll discover extraterrestrial life. New research from Cornell University finds that alien microbes could, just maybe, eek it out on Saturn's largest moon, Titan. But these critters wouldn't be like anything we've ever seen before--not even close." See: http://gizmodo.com/its-time-to-go-al...tan-1688663932 |
#17
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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 7:52:42 PM UTC+13, William Mook wrote:
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 8:08:33 AM UTC+13, wrote: "Now that NASA has got the hang of planetary rovers, the space agency is looking at sending submarines into space around the year 2040. At the recent 2015 NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts (NIAC) Symposium in Cocoa Beach, Florida, NASA scientists and engineers presented a study of the Titan Submarine Phase I Conceptual Design, which outlines a possible mission to Saturn's largest moon, Titan, where the unmanned submersible would explore the seas of liquid hydrocarbons at the Titanian poles." See: http://www.gizmag.com/nasa-titan-sub...concept/35960/ Cornell proposed a submarine for Europa several years back; http://www.space.com/14997-jupiter-e...ine-robot.html https://science.house.gov/sites/repu...11_Squyres.pdf Tidal forces keep the interior of Europa quite warm. The largest impact structures are Europa are surrounded by concentric rings and filled with fresh ice. From this astronomers know the outer crust of ice is 30 km (19 miles) thick. Beneath that icy crust lives a liquid ocean underneath that's 100 km (60 mi) deep! This means that the volume of Europa's oceans of 3e18 m3, (3e21 kg) more than two times the volume of Earth's oceans! And because of the effect of the freeze thaw cycle, mostly FRESH water! The mass of Europa is 4.8e22 kg.. With a surface gravity of 0.134 gees (less than the moon) and an escape velocity of 2.025 km/sec. A kg of ice projected from Europa requires 2.03 MJ. A kg of ice boiled to form steam requires 4.40 MJ. http://www.nss.org/settlement/Coloni...es_chap09.html http://settlement.arc.nasa.gov/75Sum...y/table5.3.gif With 42,000,000 kg of water for 10,000 persons - this is 4,200 kg of water per person to maintain them in space. 210,000,000 kg - structure 488,000,000 kg - internals 42,000,000 kg - water 9,900,000,000 kg - shielding (waste rock). Dividing by 10,000 persons we have 21,000 kg - structure 48,800 kg - internals 4,200 kg - water 990,000 kg - shielding (waste rock) 3e21 kg of water on Europa translates to a population of 7.14e17 people. This requires 7.57e23 kg of rock to be processed to extract the other requirements. The mass of Europa is 4.8e22 kg - is 1/15th the mass required. To make use of all the water in a Stanford Torus requires something the size of Mars PLUS something the size of Callisto, along with the rocky parts of Europa, to meet the needs this this level of construction. 71.4 trillion stations are required. Orbiting at the same distance from the Sun as Mars, and pointing the spin axis of each station radially toward the Sun, allows 795.8 million stations to ring the Sun and to accomodate all 71.4 trillion stations requires a band 70,000 above and below Mars' orbital plane! 7.14e17 people is 100 million more people than are alive today! Unconstrained population growth of 1.14% per year achieves this tremendous level of population by 3640 AD. Of course over this period humanity will likely develop star travel, and 7.14e17 people divided by 200 billion star systems is only 3.57 million people per star system. Now, with speed of light limitations it will take 130,000 years to reach the most distant parts of the Milky Way. Now, when moving at near light speed, time slows down. This means that Stanford Torus sized ships that move near light speed, and pass 1625 years ship time over 100,000 years, as they stop along the way, move an average of 1.63% normal time. This implies an average speed of 99.9868% light speed. To attain this speed requires mass energy equal to 123.09 of positronium to photon rocket. That means that a 10 million ton Stanford Torus requires a 1.2309 billion tons of positronium.. At 8 tons per cubic meter which is the density of positronium, a spherical tank 664.8 meters in diameter holds a sufficient quantity to boost the ship to this speed. Capturing all the sunlight from the Sun at the solar surface, and efficiently converting it to positronium, produced 4 million tons of positronium per second (and captures 6 million tons per second of solar wind - sufficient to extract materials to make the spacecraft as well as the fuel supply! It takes 307.8 seconds to fill a spacecraft. Over the course of a year 102,500 ships could be disptached from the solar system. With 10,000 people aboard each, that's over 1 billion per year. More than 89.9 billion people exceeds the capacity of the sun to dispatch everyone at this speed. Using only a fraction of the energy available in the sun, we can depopulate the solar system and spread among the stars. At 1/4 gee it takes 253.3 years Sun time and 18.9 years ship time to attain the desired velocity. The way this works is, the Sun beams energy from across its surface to the Ship. The ship receives the photons, which impart momentum to the ship. The energy is used to efficiently create positronium aboard the ship, where it is stored. When the ship is filled to capacity, it then coasts to its destination, and when it is 250 light years from its destination, it slows at 0.25 gees arriving at its destination. Every year at speed aboard ship traverses 61.5 light years of space. 50 years aboard ship at speed permits the ship to traverse 3,075 light years - in 88.8 years ship time. So, spending a generation aboard ship, and a generation at a star system, 3,075 light years from where the ship started, permits an exploration cycle that reaches the centre of the galaxy in 20 generations, and across the galaxy in 80 generations. Populations double from 10,000 to 20,000 during transit, and they double again, when the target star is converted to support replication of the Earth based systems, and send another generation across the interstellar deeps! So, we can see that over the course of 100,000 years - in this way - we inhabit all sensible star systems - with a population of 3.7 million each. Of course, over this tremendous period, if we run across physical principles that let us bend space and time to our will, then our densities will become even lower - and humanity at any point in space time will be nearly nonexistent! The population crisis in the future may be a LACK of humanity, not a surplus! |
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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 9:06:06 AM UTC+13, Rick Jones wrote:
wrote: According to the concept, the X-37 would make a soft water landing in Kraken Mare and then deploy the submarine." http://www.newsledge.com/u-s-air-for...re-titan-13432 I might have missed it but it doesn't say quite how it would deploy the submaring. Would they shift the cargo-bay doors to the bottom of the lifting body? Land upside-down? Sink and expect the sub to just float away? rick jones -- No need to believe in either side, or any side. There is no cause. There's only yourself. The belief is in your own precision. - Joubert these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH... There's no air. The idea is to slam into the ice and use a nuclear heat source to melt through, while leaving a transmitter on the surface. Then, when the heater melts through the ice, it releases an autonomous snake sub. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ice-distant-moon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMkGDHdDpC0 A robot snake with 'athletic algorithms' and nuclear power plant would be quite capable! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2itwFJCgFQ |
#19
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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 10:52:43 PM UTC+13, William Mook wrote:
On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 9:06:06 AM UTC+13, Rick Jones wrote: wrote: According to the concept, the X-37 would make a soft water landing in Kraken Mare and then deploy the submarine." http://www.newsledge.com/u-s-air-for...re-titan-13432 I might have missed it but it doesn't say quite how it would deploy the submaring. Would they shift the cargo-bay doors to the bottom of the lifting body? Land upside-down? Sink and expect the sub to just float away? rick jones -- No need to believe in either side, or any side. There is no cause. There's only yourself. The belief is in your own precision. - Joubert these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH... There's no air. The idea is to slam into the ice and use a nuclear heat source to melt through, while leaving a transmitter on the surface. Then, when the heater melts through the ice, it releases an autonomous snake sub. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ice-distant-moon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMkGDHdDpC0 A robot snake with 'athletic algorithms' and nuclear power plant would be quite capable! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2itwFJCgFQ A number of snakes, and a number of sphero type surface devices - rolling balls that use inertia wheels to drive them, surrounded with 36 cameras of 3 megapixels each, to explore the surface, whilst snakes drill down and explore the water beneath the ice! |
#20
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NASA releases details of Titan submarine concept
William Mook wrote:
On Saturday, February 21, 2015 at 9:06:06 AM UTC+13, Rick Jones wrote: wrote: According to the concept, the X-37 would make a soft water landing in Kraken Mare and then deploy the submarine." http://www.newsledge.com/u-s-air-for...re-titan-13432 I might have missed it but it doesn't say quite how it would deploy the submaring. Would they shift the cargo-bay doors to the bottom of the lifting body? Land upside-down? Sink and expect the sub to just float away? There's no air. The idea is to slam into the ice and use a nuclear heat source to melt through, while leaving a transmitter on the surface. Then, when the heater melts through the ice, it releases an autonomous snake sub. I'm afraid you are mixing missions and destinations. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ice-distant-moon That talks about Europa. The initial discussion involving some variation on the X-37 above was for Titan, and I believe it is expected to touch-down on liquid hydrocarbons rather than ice. rick jones -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? |
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