A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » History
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

OT- the state of the union



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 20th 06, 08:16 AM posted to sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,465
Default OT- the state of the union

I kept saying I didn't like what was going on in our country over the
past few years; this man put into exact, precise, and beautiful words
everything I didn't like about it.
In the early 1840's the Papist Irish, and the beer-drunk Germans were
the two threats that could destroy this republic:

"Olbermann: And lastly, as promised, a special Comment tonight on the
signing of the Military Commissions Act and the loss of Habeas Corpus.
"We have lived as if in a trance.
We have lived. as people in fear.
And now - our rights and our freedoms in peril - we slowly awake to
learn that we have been afraid of the wrong thing.
Therefore, tonight, have we truly become, the inheritors of our American
legacy.
For, on this first full day that the Military Commissions Act is in
force, we now face what our ancestors faced, at other times of
exaggerated crisis and melodramatic fear-mongering:
A government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it claims
to protect us from.
We have been here before - and we have been here before led here - by
men better and wiser and nobler than George W. Bush.
We have been here when President John Adams insisted that the Alien and
Sedition Acts were necessary to save American lives - only to watch him
use those Acts to jail newspaper editors.
American newspaper editors, in American jails, for things they wrote,
about America.
We have been here, when President Woodrow Wilson insisted that the
Espionage Act was necessary to save American lives - only to watch him
use that Act to prosecute 2,000 Americans, especially those he
disparaged as "Hyphenated Americans," most of whom were guilty only of
advocating peace in a time of war.
American public speakers, in American jails, for things they said, about
America.
And we have been here when President Franklin D. Roosevelt insisted that
Executive Order 9-0-6-6 was necessary to save American lives - only to
watch him use that Order to imprison and pauperize 110-thousand Americans.
While his man-in-charge.General DeWitt, told Congress: "It makes no
difference whether he is an American citizen - he is still a Japanese."
American citizens, in American camps, for something they neither wrote
nor said nor did - but for the choices they or their ancestors had made,
about coming to America.
Each of these actions was undertaken for the most vital, the most
urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.
And each, was a betrayal of that for which the President who advocated
them, claimed to be fighting.
Adams and his party were swept from office, and the Alien and Sedition
Acts erased.
Many of the very people Wilson silenced, survived him, and one of them
even ran to succeed him, and got 900-thousand votes ~ though his
Presidential campaign was conducted entirely. from his jail cell.
And Roosevelt's internment of the Japanese was not merely the worst
blight on his record, but it would necessitate a formal apology from the
government of the United States, to the citizens of the United States,
whose lives it ruined.
The most vital. the most urgent. the most inescapable of reasons.
In times of fright, we have been, only human.
We have let Roosevelt's "fear of fear itself" overtake us.
We have listened to the little voice inside that has said "the wolf is
at the door; this will be temporary; this will be precise; this too
shall pass."
We have accepted, that the only way to stop the terrorists, is to let
the government become just a little bit like the terrorists.
Just the way we once accepted that the only way to stop the Soviets, was
to let the government become just a little bit like the Soviets.
Or substitute. the Japanese.
Or the Germans.
Or the Socialists.
Or the Anarchists.
Or the Immigrants.
Or the British.
Or the Aliens.
The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.
And, always, always. wrong.
"With the distance of history, the questions will be narrowed and few:
Did this generation of Americans take the threat seriously, and did we
do what it takes to defeat that threat?"
Wise words.
And ironic ones, Mr. Bush.
Your own, of course, yesterday, in signing the Military Commissions Act.
You spoke so much more than you know, Sir.
Sadly - of course - the distance of history will recognize that the
threat this generation of Americans needed to take seriously was you.
We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed
to Benjamin Franklin that "those who would give up essential liberty to
purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
But even within this history, we have not before codified, the poisoning
of Habeas Corpus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential
liberties flow.
You, sir, have now befouled that spring.
You, sir, have now given us chaos and called it order.
You, sir, have now imposed subjugation and called it freedom.
For the most vital. the most urgent. the most inescapable of reasons.
And - again, Mr. Bush - all of them, wrong.
We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who has
said it is unacceptable to compare anything this country has ever done,
to anything the terrorists have ever done.
We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who has
insisted again that "the United States does not torture. It's against
our laws and it's against our values" and who has said it with a
straight face while the pictures from Abu Ghraib Prison and the stories
of Waterboarding figuratively fade in and out, around him.
We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who may
now, if he so decides, declare not merely any non-American citizens
"Unlawful Enemy Combatants" and ship them somewhere - anywhere - but may
now, if he so decides, declare you an "Unlawful Enemy Combatant" and
ship you somewhere - anywhere.
And if you think this, hyperbole or hysteria ~ ask the newspaper editors
when John Adams was President, or the pacifists when Woodrow Wilson was
President, or the Japanese at Manzanar when Franklin Roosevelt was
President.
And if you somehow think Habeas Corpus has not been suspended for
American citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you
are pulled off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an
undocumented immigrant or an "unlawful enemy combatant" - exactly how
are you going to convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you
are not? Do you think this Attorney General is going to help you?
This President now has his blank check.
He lied to get it.
He lied as he received it.
Is there any reason to even hope, he has not lied about how he intends
to use it, nor who he intends to use it against?
"These military commissions will provide a fair trial," you told us
yesterday, Mr. Bush. "In which the accused are presumed innocent, have
access to an attorney, and can hear all the evidence against them."
'Presumed innocent,' Mr. Bush?
The very piece of paper you signed as you said that, allows for the
detainees to be abused up to the point just before they sustain "serious
mental and physical trauma" in the hope of getting them to incriminate
themselves, and may no longer even invoke The Geneva Conventions in
their own defense.
'Access to an attorney,' Mr. Bush?
Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift said on this program, Sir, and to the
Supreme Court, that he was only granted access to his detainee
defendant, on the promise that the detainee would plead guilty.
'Hearing all the evidence,' Mr. Bush?
The Military Commissions act specifically permits the introduction of
classified evidence not made available to the defense.
Your words are lies, Sir.
They are lies, that imperil us all.
"One of the terrorists believed to have planned the 9/11 attacks," you
told us yesterday. "said he hoped the attacks would be the beginning of
the end of America."
That terrorist, sir, could only hope.
Not his actions, nor the actions of a ceaseless line of terrorists (real
or imagined), could measure up to what you have wrought."

Do you want to know who this Mr. Olbermann is? You've met him once
before in the history of our country.
He's the guy who said "My only regret is that I have but one life to
give for my country." as they took him to the gallows for what he had
thought, and written.

God Bless You, Mr. Olbermann

God Bless You.

Pat
  #2  
Old October 20th 06, 09:22 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stan Marsh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 45
Default OT- the state of the union


"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...
I kept saying I didn't like what was going on in our country over the past
few years; this man put into exact, precise, and beautiful words everything
I didn't like about it.
In the early 1840's the Papist Irish, and the beer-drunk Germans were the
two threats that could destroy this republic:

"Olbermann: And lastly, as promised, a special Comment tonight on the
signing of the Military Commissions Act and the loss of Habeas Corpus.
"We have lived as if in a trance.
We have lived. as people in fear.
And now - our rights and our freedoms in peril - we slowly awake to learn
that we have been afraid of the wrong thing.
Therefore, tonight, have we truly become, the inheritors of our American
legacy.
For, on this first full day that the Military Commissions Act is in force,
we now face what our ancestors faced, at other times of exaggerated crisis
and melodramatic fear-mongering:
A government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it claims to
protect us from.
We have been here before - and we have been here before led here - by men
better and wiser and nobler than George W. Bush.
We have been here when President John Adams insisted that the Alien and
Sedition Acts were necessary to save American lives - only to watch him
use those Acts to jail newspaper editors.
American newspaper editors, in American jails, for things they wrote,
about America.
We have been here, when President Woodrow Wilson insisted that the
Espionage Act was necessary to save American lives - only to watch him use
that Act to prosecute 2,000 Americans, especially those he disparaged as
"Hyphenated Americans," most of whom were guilty only of advocating peace
in a time of war.
American public speakers, in American jails, for things they said, about
America.
And we have been here when President Franklin D. Roosevelt insisted that
Executive Order 9-0-6-6 was necessary to save American lives - only to
watch him use that Order to imprison and pauperize 110-thousand Americans.
While his man-in-charge.General DeWitt, told Congress: "It makes no
difference whether he is an American citizen - he is still a Japanese."
American citizens, in American camps, for something they neither wrote nor
said nor did - but for the choices they or their ancestors had made, about
coming to America.
Each of these actions was undertaken for the most vital, the most urgent,
the most inescapable of reasons.
And each, was a betrayal of that for which the President who advocated
them, claimed to be fighting.
Adams and his party were swept from office, and the Alien and Sedition
Acts erased.
Many of the very people Wilson silenced, survived him, and one of them
even ran to succeed him, and got 900-thousand votes ~ though his
Presidential campaign was conducted entirely. from his jail cell.
And Roosevelt's internment of the Japanese was not merely the worst blight
on his record, but it would necessitate a formal apology from the
government of the United States, to the citizens of the United States,
whose lives it ruined.
The most vital. the most urgent. the most inescapable of reasons.
In times of fright, we have been, only human.
We have let Roosevelt's "fear of fear itself" overtake us.
We have listened to the little voice inside that has said "the wolf is at
the door; this will be temporary; this will be precise; this too shall
pass."
We have accepted, that the only way to stop the terrorists, is to let the
government become just a little bit like the terrorists.
Just the way we once accepted that the only way to stop the Soviets, was
to let the government become just a little bit like the Soviets.
Or substitute. the Japanese.
Or the Germans.
Or the Socialists.
Or the Anarchists.
Or the Immigrants.
Or the British.
Or the Aliens.
The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.
And, always, always. wrong.
"With the distance of history, the questions will be narrowed and few: Did
this generation of Americans take the threat seriously, and did we do what
it takes to defeat that threat?"
Wise words.
And ironic ones, Mr. Bush.
Your own, of course, yesterday, in signing the Military Commissions Act.
You spoke so much more than you know, Sir.
Sadly - of course - the distance of history will recognize that the threat
this generation of Americans needed to take seriously was you.
We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed to
Benjamin Franklin that "those who would give up essential liberty to
purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
But even within this history, we have not before codified, the poisoning
of Habeas Corpus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential
liberties flow.
You, sir, have now befouled that spring.
You, sir, have now given us chaos and called it order.
You, sir, have now imposed subjugation and called it freedom.
For the most vital. the most urgent. the most inescapable of reasons.
And - again, Mr. Bush - all of them, wrong.
We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who has
said it is unacceptable to compare anything this country has ever done, to
anything the terrorists have ever done.
We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who has
insisted again that "the United States does not torture. It's against our
laws and it's against our values" and who has said it with a straight face
while the pictures from Abu Ghraib Prison and the stories of Waterboarding
figuratively fade in and out, around him.
We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who may
now, if he so decides, declare not merely any non-American citizens
"Unlawful Enemy Combatants" and ship them somewhere - anywhere - but may
now, if he so decides, declare you an "Unlawful Enemy Combatant" and ship
you somewhere - anywhere.
And if you think this, hyperbole or hysteria ~ ask the newspaper editors
when John Adams was President, or the pacifists when Woodrow Wilson was
President, or the Japanese at Manzanar when Franklin Roosevelt was
President.
And if you somehow think Habeas Corpus has not been suspended for American
citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are pulled
off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented
immigrant or an "unlawful enemy combatant" - exactly how are you going to
convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you
think this Attorney General is going to help you?
This President now has his blank check.
He lied to get it.
He lied as he received it.
Is there any reason to even hope, he has not lied about how he intends to
use it, nor who he intends to use it against?
"These military commissions will provide a fair trial," you told us
yesterday, Mr. Bush. "In which the accused are presumed innocent, have
access to an attorney, and can hear all the evidence against them."
'Presumed innocent,' Mr. Bush?
The very piece of paper you signed as you said that, allows for the
detainees to be abused up to the point just before they sustain "serious
mental and physical trauma" in the hope of getting them to incriminate
themselves, and may no longer even invoke The Geneva Conventions in their
own defense.
'Access to an attorney,' Mr. Bush?
Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift said on this program, Sir, and to the
Supreme Court, that he was only granted access to his detainee defendant,
on the promise that the detainee would plead guilty.
'Hearing all the evidence,' Mr. Bush?
The Military Commissions act specifically permits the introduction of
classified evidence not made available to the defense.
Your words are lies, Sir.
They are lies, that imperil us all.
"One of the terrorists believed to have planned the 9/11 attacks," you
told us yesterday. "said he hoped the attacks would be the beginning of
the end of America."
That terrorist, sir, could only hope.
Not his actions, nor the actions of a ceaseless line of terrorists (real
or imagined), could measure up to what you have wrought."

Do you want to know who this Mr. Olbermann is? You've met him once before
in the history of our country.
He's the guy who said "My only regret is that I have but one life to give
for my country." as they took him to the gallows for what he had thought,
and written.

God Bless You, Mr. Olbermann

God Bless You.

Pat


Hear, hear. I wish everyone would watch Olbermann for a week. Hope the USA
survives the Bush presidency...


  #3  
Old October 22nd 06, 03:18 PM posted to sci.space.history
Terrell Miller
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 274
Default OT- the state of the union

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...
I kept saying I didn't like what was going on in our country over the past
few years; this man put into exact, precise, and beautiful words everything
I didn't like about it.
In the early 1840's the Papist Irish, and the beer-drunk Germans were the
two threats that could destroy this republic:

"Olbermann: And lastly, as promised, a special Comment tonight on the
signing of the Military Commissions Act and the loss of Habeas Corpus.
"We have lived as if in a trance.
We have lived. as people in fear.
And now - our rights and our freedoms in peril - we slowly awake to learn
that we have been afraid of the wrong thing.
Therefore, tonight, have we truly become, the inheritors of our American
legacy.
For, on this first full day that the Military Commissions Act is in force,
we now face what our ancestors faced, at other times of exaggerated crisis
and melodramatic fear-mongering:
A government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it claims to
protect us from.
We have been here before - and we have been here before led here - by men
better and wiser and nobler than George W. Bush.


snip

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who may
now, if he so decides, declare not merely any non-American citizens
"Unlawful Enemy Combatants" and ship them somewhere - anywhere - but may
now, if he so decides, declare you an "Unlawful Enemy Combatant" and ship
you somewhere - anywhere.
And if you think this, hyperbole or hysteria ~ ask the newspaper editors
when John Adams was President, or the pacifists when Woodrow Wilson was
President, or the Japanese at Manzanar when Franklin Roosevelt was
President.
And if you somehow think Habeas Corpus has not been suspended for American
citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are pulled
off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented
immigrant or an "unlawful enemy combatant" - exactly how are you going to
convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you
think this Attorney General is going to help you?




ahem:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...0enr. txt.pdf

''§ 948a. Definitions

''In this chapter:

''(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.-(A) The term 'unlawful

enemy combatant' means-

''(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who

has purposefully and materially supported hostilities

against the United States or its co-belligerents who is

not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who

is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces);

or

''(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of

the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006,

has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant

by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent

tribunal established under the authority of the

President or the Secretary of Defense.

''(B) CO-BELLIGERENT.-In this paragraph, the term 'cobelligerent',

with respect to the United States, means any State

or armed force joining and directly engaged with the United

States in hostilities or directly supporting hostilities against

a common enemy.

''(2) LAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.-The term 'lawful enemy

combatant' means a person who is-

''(A) a member of the regular forces of a State party

engaged in hostilities against the United States;

''(B) a member of a militia, volunteer corps, or organized

resistance movement belonging to a State party

engaged in such hostilities, which are under responsible

command, wear a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at

a distance, carry their arms openly, and abide by the

law of war; or

''(C) a member of a regular armed force who professes

allegiance to a government engaged in such hostilities,

but not recognized by the United States.

''(3) ALIEN.-The term 'alien' means a person who is not

a citizen of the United States.




''§ 948c. Persons subject to military commissions

''Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by

military commission under this chapter.

S. 3930-4

''§ 948d. Jurisdiction of military commissions

''(a) JURISDICTION.-A military commission under this chapter

shall have jurisdiction to try any offense made punishable by this

chapter or the law of war when committed by an alien unlawful

enemy combatant before, on, or after September 11, 2001.

''(b) LAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANTS.-Military commissions under

this chapter shall not have jurisdiction over lawful enemy combatants.

Lawful enemy combatants who violate the law of war are

subject to chapter 47 of this title. Courts-martial established under

that chapter shall have jurisdiction to try a lawful enemy combatant

for any offense made punishable under this chapter.

''(c) DETERMINATION OF UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT STATUS

DISPOSITIVE.-A finding, whether before, on, or after the date of

the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, by a

Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal

established under the authority of the President or the Secretary

of Defense that a person is an unlawful enemy combatant is dispositive

for purposes of jurisdiction for trial by military commission

under this chapter.

''(d) PUNISHMENTS.-A military commission under this chapter

may, under such limitations as the Secretary of Defense may prescribe,

adjudge any punishment not forbidden by this chapter,

including the penalty of death when authorized under this chapter

or the law of war.




Always help to actually read the material you are criticizing and see what
it actually says and includes, y'know?


--
Terrell Miller


"Just...take...the...****ing...flower...darlin g"
Terrell's dating style according to OKCupid.com


  #4  
Old October 22nd 06, 03:50 PM posted to sci.space.history
Herb Schaltegger[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 442
Default OT- the state of the union

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:18:15 -0500, Terrell Miller wrote
(in article ):



Always help to actually read the material you are criticizing and see what it


actually says and includes, y'know?


Some of us have and realize that Olbermann is exactly right. THINK
about that stuff for a minute and realize how much power this vests in
the executive branch. It's obscene. Absolutely obscene.

--
Herb Schaltegger
"You can run on for a long time . . . sooner or later, God'll cut you
down." - Johnny Cash
http://www.angryherb.net

  #5  
Old October 22nd 06, 05:01 PM posted to sci.space.history
David M. Palmer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 156
Default OT- the state of the union

In article , Terrell
Miller wrote:

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...



And if you somehow think Habeas Corpus has not been suspended for American
citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are pulled
off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented
immigrant or an "unlawful enemy combatant" - exactly how are you going to
convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you
think this Attorney General is going to help you?

ahem:



http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...109_cong_bills
&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf
snipping to the relevant parts

''(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.-(A) The term 'unlawful

enemy combatant' means-

....
''(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of
the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006,
has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant
by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent
tribunal established under the authority of the
President or the Secretary of Defense.


Is there anywhere in the act that gives you the right for you and
counsel to appear before this tribunal before, during or after you have
been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant?

It does explicitly state that there is no right to a speedy trial.
(948b. d A) But a trial, when and if it occurs, would only be for
additional "violations of the law of war and other offenses triable by
military commission."

When the tribunal, of one or more people picked by the President*,
declares that you** are an unlawful enemy combatant, then you _are_ an
unlawful enemy combatant, even if your only crime is aggravated
swarthiness and conspiracy to commit facial hair.

*Bush or Hillary--what goes around comes around.
**Or everyone on a list that includes you, or someone with
a similar name (like on the no-fly list).

Always help to actually read the material you are criticizing and see what
it actually says and includes, y'know?


Hell yes.

--
David M. Palmer (formerly @clark.net, @ematic.com)
  #6  
Old October 23rd 06, 04:44 PM posted to sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default OT- the state of the union

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:50:11 -0500, in a place far, far away, Herb
Schaltegger made the
phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:18:15 -0500, Terrell Miller wrote
(in article ):



Always help to actually read the material you are criticizing and see what it


actually says and includes, y'know?


Some of us have and realize that Olbermann is exactly right.


If he is, it would be a first. I can actually feel my IQ plummet when
I listen to one of his mindless rants.
  #7  
Old October 23rd 06, 06:27 PM posted to sci.space.history
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 162
Default OT- the state of the union


Herb Schaltegger wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:18:15 -0500, Terrell Miller wrote
(in article ):



Always help to actually read the material you are criticizing and see what it


actually says and includes, y'know?


Some of us have and realize that Olbermann is exactly right. THINK
about that stuff for a minute and realize how much power this vests in
the executive branch. It's obscene. Absolutely obscene.


Blame the Founding Fathers. It's the system they set up.

  #8  
Old October 23rd 06, 06:33 PM posted to sci.space.history
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 162
Default OT- the state of the union


Pat Flannery wrote:

Sadly - of course - the distance of history will recognize that the
threat this generation of Americans needed to take seriously was you.


Ah, yes. Fearmongering at it's finest.


We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed
to Benjamin Franklin that "those who would give up essential liberty to
purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."


Is this a rant against gun control laws? Somehow I think not.


God Bless You, Mr. Olbermann

God Bless You.



Snort.


Let me know when Bush sends FBI assassins to kill Americans living on
thier own land and harming nobody, and not even suspected of being
involved in criminal activity... as Clinton did.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WINNER OF THE EVOLUTIONIST WHALE LOOKALIKE CONTEST IS... David Iain Greig -- Moderator of talk.origins Ed Conrad Astronomy Misc 0 July 2nd 06 06:40 AM
Only Pseudoscientists Call CROP CIRCLES Man Made Ed Conrad Amateur Astronomy 0 May 25th 06 05:43 AM
EXTRATERRESTRIAL REVEAL ORIGINS OF HUMAN RACES [email protected] Astronomy Misc 0 May 24th 06 09:11 PM
EXTRATERRESTRIALS AND BILLY MEIER -- Many Predictions Come True -- Universe -- Space [email protected] Misc 0 May 4th 06 08:54 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.