Genesis and Matthew

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:17:14 PM UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 15:18:16 -0800 (PST), wsnell01 wrote:



Peterson, did you write this?:

"The right
to religion has been limited throughout history, to the point where
its existence is doubtful (and ought to be limited today in free
societies, such as making it illegal to teach children about religion,
or take them to church)."

Yes, although in practice I don't know how to make such a thing
happen.

You had suggested making the teaching of religion illegal. You would simply support political candidates who included that in their platforms, correct?

I think what will ultimately occur is that teaching children
about religion (as truth) will simply be seen as socially
unacceptable.

Socially unacceptable in what way? How will "society" make it "unacceptable?"

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:20:28 PM UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 14:42:44 -0800 (PST), wsnell01 wrote:



Primitive? How exactly? Give us a "reasonable definition" of "primitive."

They had little understanding of nature and natural laws.

That describes you.

They
ascribed most things to supernatural forces.

Since the frontiers of science are based on speculation about the unobservable (quarks, string theory, the Big Bang, etc.) that would describe you as well.

Their shelters and tools
were very simple.

That describes you.

They had limited control over their environment.

That also describes you.

And if
you use the Old Testament as evidence (as Gerald chooses to do), they
were brutal nearly beyond imagination.

I thought you had suggested that the Old Testament was fantasy.

Fantasy based on the lives and ideas of the people who wrote it.

So if people write brutal crime novels or grisly horror stories, you assume that the writers are basing their works on personal actions?

Of
course, some of it consists of loose history. But most is fabricated.

Most of it is written as parable and allegory. Were you not aware of that?

Certainly there's virtually nothing to be found in Genesis that
represents accurate history, or which describes how nature actually
operates.

What are electrons made of?

On Friday, February 7, 2014 5:11:10 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

The canonical minimalist religion requires just two core axioms to be
accepted by "the faithful" as the absolute truth:

1. Ours is "The One True God"(tm) and all non-believers will burn
eternally in hellfire when they die.

2. It is the duty of all true believers to minimise human suffering.

It isn't hard to get from 1 & 2 to "The ends justify the means".

Strawman argument. Change "non-believers" to "sinners" and "minimise human suffering" to "help those in need" and you will have taken a small step towards the truth about religion as practiced by most people.

To be fair I haven't heard preachers talk about "hellfire" nor did I hear about it in Sunday school, nor do I find it in the hymnals. You must be getting your stereotypes from TV and the movies, correct?

The Spanish Inquisition being one of the more active proponents of this
sort of conversion. Taken together it clearly allows any finite amount
of torturing in this world to prevent eternal suffering in the next.

Oh you mean like the Catholic and Protestant wars that have been going
on for centuries in Europe with each trying to wipe the other out?
(and still going on to a lesser extent in Ireland to this day)

Or like the godless communists/fascists who starved, gassed, purged and imprisoned tens of millions during the 20th Century, and engaged in ruinous wars that killed millions more.

Unfortunately that is about 30% of the US population who think the world
is 6000 years old and Gawd will press the big red reset button real soon
now so there is no need to look after the planet.

What are YOU doing to "look after the planet?"

Hardly. The Bible specifies in detail the right dimensions of stick to
beat your wife and slaves with. Times change but ancient books remain
the same and their translations into other languages crystallise what
were once old ambiguities into potentially dangerous absolutes.

What do you propose to do with the Bibles (and Torahs and Korans) that are still lying around after all of these years?

Interpretation of the Bible as the literal truth appears to be a
particularly bad problem in the USA which ended up with every cranky
medieval religious zealot that got thrown out of Europe. Worse still
they managed to perpetuate most of their cranky beliefs unchanged.

/sarcasm
Yeah, right, witch burnings are a weekly event around here.
/end sarcasm

Where do you get such stereotypes? From your TV shows or from your school textbooks?

By comparison Australia was founded mostly as a criminal colony

No, most of Australia was settled by non-criminals.

and has developed into a far more civilised and easy going society.

And a rather homogenous one too.

In Quadibloc
wrote:

Faith leads people to believe things like this:

...

I express it as "If you'll believe that, you'll believe anything."

--
St. Paul, MN

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 6:41:52 PM UTC, Chris L Peterson wrote:


Yes, humans living 3000 years ago are considered pre-technological for

the most part. And primitive by most reasonable definitions. And if

you use the Old Testament as evidence (as Gerald chooses to do), they

were brutal nearly beyond imagination.

Be content that nominal Christians hardly get the point of Genesis let alone the mathematical narrative of the genealogy from the creation of Adam to the first drop of rain of the flood (creation/destruction cycle) and why the mathematical feature prevents the narrative from swamping the message.Think of it as a higher form of reasoning.

What distinguishes a genuine astronomer from the many imitations passing themselves off using that title comes down to choices or in your case,the ability to give yourselves choices you do not have.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/anonymous/theologia.v.III.html

Christianity in its purest form is a journey out of a type of poverty rather than a descent into 'convictions' (which the outer person thinks as 'belief'). It is why some people accomplish more than others,each according to their inclination as they grow out of their small wants and hates and discover their true talents along the route and what a tough route it is.

Unless there is a spark of spirit, not Christianity nor astronomy will make sense.

:
Peterson, did you write this?:

"The right
to religion has been limited throughout history, to the point where
its existence is doubtful (and ought to be limited today in free
societies, such as making it illegal to teach children about religion,
or take them to church)."

Chris Peterson:
Yes, although in practice I don't know how to make such a thing
happen. I think what will ultimately occur is that teaching children
about religion (as truth) will simply be seen as socially
unacceptable.

You don't see a contradiction between "free society" and "illegal to
teach children about religion, or take them to church?"

Living at a high elevation as you do, I would advise you to not to
further deprive your brain of oxygen by holding your breath until
religion is outlawed in the USA.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:24:44 -0500, Davoud wrote:
You don't see a contradiction between "free society" and "illegal to
teach children about religion, or take them to church?"

You don't see a contradiction between "free society" and a lot of
other things which already are illegal? Do you want to get rid of all
laws, because laws do "inhibit freedom"?

On Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:54:30 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought

as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Corinthians 13 is an ode that love is the center of all things and everything is secondary,including Knowledge.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing." St Paul

We catch fleeting glimpses of the Divine in all things and sometimes we get to put some shape tho these things in whatever talent that comes to us so you use a Christian saying that is directed to our own journey through life from the Divine to the Divine -

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put aside childish things. For now we see as in a mirror,darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love." St Paul

You have not yet journeyed through life with that sense of inspiration which connects the individual to the Universal or man to God for what else is the life of Christ than a source of inspiration that does not end with death. Strange that you picked a quote from a man who once sought to destroy Christianity but in one moment was struck by the same inspiration that is so much central to Christian minds and actions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUgoBb8m1eE&feature=kp

They say the Enigma Variations refer to that Hellenic poem and I can well believe it even though Elgar never said it directly.

On Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:54:30 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:

More importantly very few Christians follow the teaching of Christ.



They prefer the spiteful, vindictive God of the Old Testament or

Revelations who would never turn the other cheek.


The outward form of Revelation can sometimes act like gargoyles outside a cathedral

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 7:01:41 AM UTC, oriel36 wrote:
On Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:54:30 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:



More importantly very few Christians follow the teaching of Christ.







They prefer the spiteful, vindictive God of the Old Testament or



Revelations who would never turn the other cheek.





The outward form of Revelation can sometimes act like gargoyles outside a cathedral.

Numerical values play such a brilliant role in that great Book and they are all tied together in such a way as to form a framework - a hexagonal form with pentagonal values in point of fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Quasicrystal

http://www.scienceu.com/geometry/art...g/penrose.html

I am taking from the numerical structure of the Book of Revelation rather than adding to it. It is also why I can read astronomical literature or even pseudo-astronomical literature in a comfortable and confident way and point out to you what is true (even if incomplete) and what is dross and voodoo..

Rather than look at the failings of denominational Christianity why not look at the great works of inspiration which often come at great expense from individual Christians and you will be less susceptible to this anti-religion humanism which is vapid and unstable.