Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

I have read in wikipedia that cosmic rays are 90% protons,
so positive charged, with appreciable mass.
These could be deflected by a magnetic field, in a specific direction.
This would then both give protection to hardware and people in a spacecraft,
as well as a provide a force without needing a reaction mass.
As these protons seem to randomly come from all directions,
one could then use the magnetic field to steer in any direction.
Seems much easier than solar sail, as that has a preferred direction.
Has this been investigated?

Dear Jan Panteltje:

On Dec 3, 12:27*pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

I have read in wikipedia that cosmic rays are 90% protons,
so positive charged, with appreciable mass. These could
be deflected by a magnetic field, in a specific direction.

Bussard ram scoop.

This would then both give protection to hardware and people
in a spacecraft,

No, it wouldn't. Wouldn't touch neutral atoms, and only collect some
percentage of cosmic rays with finite power to the magnetic field.

as well as a provide a force without needing a

.... onboard supply of ...
reaction mass. As these protons seem to randomly come
from all directions, one could then use the magnetic field to
steer in any direction. Seems much easier than solar sail,
as that has a preferred direction.
Has this been investigated?

Powering the magnetics becomes problematic. Magnetic field strength
falls of faster than 1/r^2, so you have very high accelerations, and
accelerating charges "away form you" bathes you in Bremstralung
radiation (without luck / great care).

Still need a magic power source.

David A. Smith

On a sunny day (Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:06:03 -0800 (PST)) it happened dlzc
wrote in
:

Dear Jan Panteltje:

On Dec 3, 12:27*pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

I have read in wikipedia that cosmic rays are 90% protons,
so positive charged, with appreciable mass. These could
be deflected by a magnetic field, in a specific direction.

Bussard ram scoop.

Looked it up on wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet
This seems to use *fusion*, and uses mostly neutral matter.




This would then both give protection to hardware and people
in a spacecraft,

No, it wouldn't. Wouldn't touch neutral atoms, and only collect some
percentage of cosmic rays with finite power to the magnetic field.

The idea I have is not to use the neutral atoms, but
only the positively charged protons.

You can do that magnetically, but also, maybe simpler to visualise, electrostatic.
Imagine a huge electron gun (like in a CRT), now you shoot protons.
Sort of a particle accelerator.
This should create a directional force.
Or maybe magnetic and electrostatic can be combined, as it has been done in CRTs.

It is true heading very fast into neutrons or neutral matter is not healthy either,
but that could be shielded against with some material.



as well as a provide a force without needing a

... onboard supply of ...
reaction mass. As these protons seem to randomly come
from all directions, one could then use the magnetic field to
steer in any direction. Seems much easier than solar sail,
as that has a preferred direction.
Has this been investigated?

Powering the magnetics becomes problematic. Magnetic field strength
falls of faster than 1/r^2, so you have very high accelerations, and
accelerating charges "away form you" bathes you in Bremstralung
radiation (without luck / great care).

X rays and similar radiation is easily shielded against with some thin layer of metal.


Still need a magic power source.

Of course, green paranoia politics aside, nuclear power, a nuclear reactor
in space could work for more than 30 years, depends on how much fuel you bring,
life support needs that power too, long enough to make a space trip...


David A. Smith

Dear Jan Panteltje:

On Dec 4, 3:16*am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:06:03 -0800 (PST)) it happened dlzc
wrote in
:
On Dec 3, 12:27*pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

I have read in wikipedia that cosmic rays are 90% protons,
so positive charged, with appreciable mass. *These could
be deflected by a magnetic field, in a specific direction.

Bussard ram scoop.

Looked it up on wikipedia,
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet
This seems to use *fusion*, and uses mostly neutral matter.

The ram scoop only works on ionized matter.

This would then both give protection to hardware and
people in a spacecraft,

No, it wouldn't. *Wouldn't touch neutral atoms, and only
collect some percentage of cosmic rays with finite power
to the magnetic field.

The idea I have is not to use the neutral atoms, but
only the positively charged protons.

But you'll be crashing into neutral atoms.

You can do that magnetically, but also, maybe simpler
to visualise, electrostatic. Imagine a huge electron gun
(like in a CRT), now you shoot protons. Sort of a particle
accelerator. This should create a directional force.

I got it, three times over now. Still need a power source.

Or maybe magnetic and electrostatic can be combined,
as it has been done in CRTs.

It is true heading very fast into neutrons or neutral matter
is not healthy either, but that could be shielded against
with some material.

.... material that gets progressively "hotter" with each day. I was
thinking a "linebacker" of an asteroid, but that in itself is a
problem.

as well as a provide a force without needing a

... onboard supply of ...
reaction mass. *As these protons seem to randomly come
from all directions, one could then use the magnetic field to
steer in any direction. *Seems much easier than solar sail,
as that has a preferred direction.
Has this been investigated?

Powering the magnetics becomes problematic. *Magnetic
field strength falls of faster than 1/r^2, so you have very high
accelerations, and accelerating charges "away form you"
bathes you in Bremstralung radiation (without luck / great care).

X rays and similar radiation is easily shielded against with
some thin layer of metal.

.... or just accelerate the stuff far from populated areas, aimed away
form populated areas.

Still need a magic power source.

Of course, green paranoia politics aside, nuclear power, a
nuclear reactor in space could work for more than 30 years,
depends on how much fuel you bring, life support needs
that power too, long enough to make a space trip...

As long as we don't lift form to orbit using Orion, leaving
radioactive materials to rain down everywhere on Earth for months, I
don't have an issue with nukes in space. Those that worry about
nuclear weapons from space platforms also have a valid point, but even
inert rocks from space can be as bad at point of impact.

But I think it would be smarter to have a reasonable low speed drive,
and what keeps spacetime from allowing point-to-point teleportation
(except as default), would be much more fruitful research.

David A. Smith

On 03/12/2011 2:27 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

I have read in wikipedia that cosmic rays are 90% protons,
so positive charged, with appreciable mass.
These could be deflected by a magnetic field, in a specific direction.
This would then both give protection to hardware and people in a spacecraft,
as well as a provide a force without needing a reaction mass.
As these protons seem to randomly come from all directions,
one could then use the magnetic field to steer in any direction.
Seems much easier than solar sail, as that has a preferred direction.
Has this been investigated?

You'd need to already be pretty high up the speed-of-light scale to have
any effective propulsion from a magnetic field deflecting off of cosmic
rays. The problem is getting up to those speeds in the first place.

Yousuf Khan

On a sunny day (Sun, 4 Dec 2011 12:40:21 -0800 (PST)) it happened dlzc
wrote in
:

Dear Jan Panteltje:

On Dec 4, 3:16*am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:06:03 -0800 (PST)) it happened dlzc
wrote in
:
On Dec 3, 12:27*pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

I have read in wikipedia that cosmic rays are 90% protons,
so positive charged, with appreciable mass. *These could
be deflected by a magnetic field, in a specific direction.

Bussard ram scoop.

Looked it up on wikipedia,
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet
This seems to use *fusion*, and uses mostly neutral matter.

The ram scoop only works on ionized matter.

This would then both give protection to hardware and
people in a spacecraft,

No, it wouldn't. *Wouldn't touch neutral atoms, and only
collect some percentage of cosmic rays with finite power
to the magnetic field.

The idea I have is not to use the neutral atoms, but
only the positively charged protons.

But you'll be crashing into neutral atoms.

You can do that magnetically, but also, maybe simpler
to visualise, electrostatic. Imagine a huge electron gun
(like in a CRT), now you shoot protons. Sort of a particle
accelerator. This should create a directional force.

I got it, three times over now. Still need a power source.

Or maybe magnetic and electrostatic can be combined,
as it has been done in CRTs.

It is true heading very fast into neutrons or neutral matter
is not healthy either, but that could be shielded against
with some material.

... material that gets progressively "hotter" with each day. I was
thinking a "linebacker" of an asteroid, but that in itself is a
problem.

as well as a provide a force without needing a

... onboard supply of ...
reaction mass. *As these protons seem to randomly come
from all directions, one could then use the magnetic field to
steer in any direction. *Seems much easier than solar sail,
as that has a preferred direction.
Has this been investigated?

Powering the magnetics becomes problematic. *Magnetic
field strength falls of faster than 1/r^2, so you have very high
accelerations, and accelerating charges "away form you"
bathes you in Bremstralung radiation (without luck / great care).

X rays and similar radiation is easily shielded against with
some thin layer of metal.

... or just accelerate the stuff far from populated areas, aimed away
form populated areas.

Still need a magic power source.

Of course, green paranoia politics aside, nuclear power, a
nuclear reactor in space could work for more than 30 years,
depends on how much fuel you bring, life support needs
that power too, long enough to make a space trip...

As long as we don't lift form to orbit using Orion, leaving
radioactive materials to rain down everywhere on Earth for months, I
don't have an issue with nukes in space. Those that worry about
nuclear weapons from space platforms also have a valid point, but even
inert rocks from space can be as bad at point of impact.

But I think it would be smarter to have a reasonable low speed drive,
and what keeps spacetime from allowing point-to-point teleportation
(except as default), would be much more fruitful research.

David A. Smith

Yes, good points.
What I totally do not understand is that now they have put the International Spacejunk Station (ISS)
in orbit, and it seems to be 'ready' or 'finished',
and now it should be safely crashed on humanity,
For the same money they could have build a nice inter planetary spacecraft in orbit
that could be flown to mars, drop a lander, return if needed, without
the danger of things having to burn up in the atmosphere.
They could have brought the nuclear reactor piece by piece to it with each shuttle launch.
Project Orion is a bit too much in my view, but there is also this other
thing in the making with ionised gas, cannot remember what it was called.

On a sunny day (Sun, 04 Dec 2011 16:34:33 -0500) it happened Yousuf Khan
wrote in :

On 03/12/2011 2:27 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

I have read in wikipedia that cosmic rays are 90% protons,
so positive charged, with appreciable mass.
These could be deflected by a magnetic field, in a specific direction.
This would then both give protection to hardware and people in a spacecraft,
as well as a provide a force without needing a reaction mass.
As these protons seem to randomly come from all directions,
one could then use the magnetic field to steer in any direction.
Seems much easier than solar sail, as that has a preferred direction.
Has this been investigated?

You'd need to already be pretty high up the speed-of-light scale to have
any effective propulsion from a magnetic field deflecting off of cosmic
rays. The problem is getting up to those speeds in the first place.

Yousuf Khan

What do you base that assumption on?
Makes no sense to me.
Have you ever played with ions and magnetic and electric fields?
Have you ever build a cosmic ray detector?

Dear

On Dec 4, 2:47*pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
....
What I totally do not understand is that now they have put
the International Spacejunk Station (ISS) in orbit, and it
seems to be 'ready' or 'finished', and now it should be
safely crashed on humanity,

Who else so clearly deserves it?

For the same money they could have build a nice inter
planetary spacecraft in orbit that could be flown to mars,
drop a lander, return if needed, without the danger of
things having to burn up in the atmosphere.

Still would, just might drop some of it on the Moon, Mars, or planets
further in.

They could have brought the nuclear reactor piece by
piece to it with each shuttle launch.

It is against international treaty to do so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_S...aty#Key_points
.... since one man's nuclear weapon for propulsion, is another man's
nuclear weapon for a power grab.

Project Orion is a bit too much in my view, but there is also this other
thing in the making with ionised gas, cannot remember what it was called.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster
.... maybe.

David A. Smith

In sci.astro message , Sat, 3 Dec 2011
19:27:10, Jan Panteltje posted:

Can cosmic rays be used for interstellar propulsion?

I have read in wikipedia that cosmic rays are 90% protons,
so positive charged, with appreciable mass.
These could be deflected by a magnetic field, in a specific direction.
This would then both give protection to hardware and people in a spacecraft,
as well as a provide a force without needing a reaction mass.
As these protons seem to randomly come from all directions,
one could then use the magnetic field to steer in any direction.
Seems much easier than solar sail, as that has a preferred direction.
Has this been investigated?


You should also have read in Wikipedia that deep space cosmic ray energy
is about 1 eV/cm^3, similar to starlight Now 1 eV is about 1.6e-19
Joules. Since that energy travels at 3e10 cm/sec, one square centimetre
of collector might get five nanowatts of power.

That's not going to get you very fast very far.

--
(c) John Stockton, near London.
Web http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQish topics, acronyms, and links.
Correct = 4-line sig. separator as above, a line precisely "-- " (RFC5536/7)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with "" or " " (RFC5536/7)

On a sunny day (Mon, 5 Dec 2011 06:24:35 -0800 (PST)) it happened dlzc
wrote in
:

Dear

On Dec 4, 2:47*pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
...
What I totally do not understand is that now they have put
the International Spacejunk Station (ISS) in orbit, and it
seems to be 'ready' or 'finished', and now it should be
safely crashed on humanity,

Who else so clearly deserves it?

Ahum.


For the same money they could have build a nice inter
planetary spacecraft in orbit that could be flown to mars,
drop a lander, return if needed, without the danger of
things having to burn up in the atmosphere.

Still would, just might drop some of it on the Moon, Mars, or planets
further in.

No, I mean the whole spacecraft, it could be left in mars or earth orbit,
more useful there as in-between station.
The [a] sample return package could be parachuted down to earth as has been
done in some other project.


They could have brought the nuclear reactor piece by
piece to it with each shuttle launch.

It is against international treaty to do so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_S...aty#Key_points
... since one man's nuclear weapon for propulsion, is another man's
nuclear weapon for a power grab.

I think in an *international* cooperation this should have been, or be, possible,
as everybody would be there to check on each other.
It is in my view silly to forbid all nuclear devices, that is a stop on science.
And of course I am sure there are already plenty up there, secretly.

Project Orion is a bit too much in my view, but there is also this other
thing in the making with ionised gas, cannot remember what it was called.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster
... maybe.

Yes, I mean that thing .. Ah, Vasimir, see link at bottom of that page.
IIRC NASA was going to test it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASIMR
Seems indeed they will in 2014?

My whole interest in the cosmic rays comes from some measurements and experiments I am
doing with gamma detectors I am building.
I did put some stuff on the web, it is with a lot of other stuff,
but scroll to the bottom of the page,
as it is sorted on time, last on the bottom:
http://panteltje.com/pub/
These are fun:
http://panteltje.com/pub/geiger_vers...s_mvi_3119.avi
http://panteltje.com/pub/cosmic_rays...t_mvi_3120.avi
http://panteltje.com/pub/crystal_rel...d_img_3123.jpg
http://panteltje.com/pub/PMT_FEU35_i...e_mvi_3210.avi
It is actually all about electronics, that site...
I have taken some nice spectra, and these rays are so powerful that
they saturate the detector even if it is set to low sensitivity.
I had to add a provision in the software to ignore them...
so it does not mess up auto scaling.
It is a nice learning experience, but also I like to think of practical
ways to use what I find.
This is an objection I have to that Buzzard? ramjet that uses fusion.
We should use things we CAN make now.
Not that we cannot make fusion, (look up fusor), but not in the form he envisions.
I you think that way nothing gets ever done.
Anyways, going to the starts seems just an engineering problem, the political will is not there either,
except perhaps in China.
I hope they make it.


David A. Smith