Martian Game Reserves

Is the title of my latest Fox column, in which I discuss the rights of
microorganisms.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,94753,00.html

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
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On 14 Aug 2003 18:35:05 GMT, h (Rand
Simberg) wrote:

Is the title of my latest Fox column, in which I discuss the rights of
microorganisms.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,94753,00.html

....Lessee, we can do the traditional, and simply force the rejects
from their society into slavery, or simply set up a protectorate state
in which we deny them the right to produce one substance which they
need to survive that they have to purchase from us at prices slightly
inflated to ensure profitability. Then we can use them for cannon
fodder in our next big war, all the while promising them independence
if they cooperate.

Aresbacillus Gandhi, anyone?


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

Rand Simberg wrote:

Is the title of my latest Fox column, in which I discuss the rights of
microorganisms.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,94753,00.html



On Stellar Manifest Destiny

Maybe we have already have examples of this in our neighborhood. A mere
4.35 light-years away is Alpha Centauri. A binary system. How might this be
an example?

http://www.goingfaster.com/icarus/destinationalpha.htm

As the sun heats up, the habitable zone moves out. At some point the Earth
will be inside the this habitable zone much the same as Venus is now. If we
are to continue to inhabit this solar system, we will have to move out with
the zone.

http://www.btinternet.com/~patricks....resolarsys.htm

As the earth gets hotter, all the water will eventually boil off. Creating
a cosmic snowstorm in the habitable zone now occupied by Mars. Filling the
planet with water.

http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/snowball.htm

But, is Mars big enough to hold the atmosphere and water? Or, does it need
some more mass? Maybe a large moon? Something to get a planetary magnetic
shield going. Liquefy the core.

That's good for another billion years or so. But what then.

What about Jupiter? Could it be the next Sun? Shades of "2001 A Space
Odyssey"

Has it already been done in the past, on Alpha Centauri?

Could we be looking in the wrong direction for intelligent life in our
solar system? Maybe, we should look at Venus a little more closely.

Craig Fink

Craig Fink wrote:

What about Jupiter? Could it be the next Sun? Shades of "2001 A Space
Odyssey"

I believe 13 Jupiter masses are needed to achieve fusion (that's been a
suggested boundary between gas giant and brown dwarf).


Could we be looking in the wrong direction for intelligent life in our
solar system? Maybe, we should look at Venus a little more closely.

You're not a Guth sock puppet, are you?

Hop
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
Is the title of my latest Fox column, in which I discuss the rights of
microorganisms.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,94753,00.html

At the tail end, you mention a fourth possibility -- preserving things for
future generations. That might fall under stewardship. Wiping everything
out also falls under stewardship. Stewardship also applies to the moon --
leaving portions of the moon in pristine condition so future generations can
see what it used to look like.

A lion in a zoo is different from a lion in the wild. A wild lion knows how
to be a lion. It knows how to hunt. There are advantages to preserving
their knowledge in addition to preserving their genes.

"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
Is the title of my latest Fox column, in which I discuss the rights of
microorganisms.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,94753,00.html

--

But what happens when we encounter another ecosystem? Well, it depends on
whether it's intelligent (and particularly, if it's conscious) or not.
If it is (assuming it's not hostile), we can leave it to do its bit to
satisfy the goal, and move on to virgin territory.
But if it's not, then it has no special claim to existence, or the territory
in which it evolved. In the interests of the preservation of knowledge, the
ecosystem will be preserved, but its range may be vastly limited in order to
carry out the higher purpose.

This either a) makes the assumption that this particular ecosystem will not
evolve into intelligent life later on or b) being there first grants us
right to destroy its chances of becoming intellingent later on

So if some vastly more intelligent species eventually find us, they might
think that we arent particularly intelligent either ( just reading some
recent stuff on s.s.* newsgroups is enough to come to this conclusion ), and
going by the plan b they will just make room for their hyperspace bypass.

So lets have our fingers crossed and hope the Vogons dont get here anytime
soon.

-kert

In article ,
Kaido Kert wrote:
This either a) makes the assumption that this particular ecosystem will not
evolve into intelligent life later on or b) being there first grants us
right to destroy its chances of becoming intellingent later on

This way lies paralysis. Everything we do and do not do affects the
future. We cannot base our actions (or lack thereof) on wild
speculations about what might or might not happen in a couple of
million years time.

If I go down to the store and purchase something from the lady behind
the counter, perhaps this made her not notice the handsome guy who
walked past behind me. Perhaps this is the one single occurrence that
caused them not to meet, fall in love, get married and have
children. Would this mean that I, in some moral sense, killed her
children that are never to be? Would this mean I should never go to
the store?

We should base our actions on realistic expectations of the effect
they will have on the world.

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

On 15 Aug 2003 07:35:01 GMT, in a place far, far away, "Kaido Kert"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such
a way as to indicate that:

But what happens when we encounter another ecosystem? Well, it depends on
whether it's intelligent (and particularly, if it's conscious) or not.
If it is (assuming it's not hostile), we can leave it to do its bit to
satisfy the goal, and move on to virgin territory.
But if it's not, then it has no special claim to existence, or the territory
in which it evolved. In the interests of the preservation of knowledge, the
ecosystem will be preserved, but its range may be vastly limited in order to
carry out the higher purpose.

This either a) makes the assumption that this particular ecosystem will not
evolve into intelligent life later on or b) being there first grants us
right to destroy its chances of becoming intellingent later on

Yup. Under this formulation, it's better to accelerate the process by
building on existing intelligence than hoping that slime mold might
become intellligent a billion years from now.

So if some vastly more intelligent species eventually find us, they might
think that we arent particularly intelligent either ( just reading some
recent stuff on s.s.* newsgroups is enough to come to this conclusion ), and
going by the plan b they will just make room for their hyperspace bypass.

There are clearly going to be some gray areas, and I'd say when in
doubt, leave it alone. It's not a matter of *which* is more
intelligent, so much as whether there's any intelligence at all.
Aside from the scientific value, what is the ethical difference
between colonizing large parts of Mars with earth life, wiping out the
native stuff in those regions, and cleaning a toilet bowl?

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here's my email address for autospammers:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On 15 Aug 2003 07:35:01 GMT, in a place far, far away, "Kaido Kert"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such
a way as to indicate that:

So if some vastly more intelligent species eventually find us, they might
think that we arent particularly intelligent either ( just reading some
recent stuff on s.s.* newsgroups is enough to come to this conclusion ), and
going by the plan b they will just make room for their hyperspace bypass.

There are clearly going to be some gray areas, and I'd say when in
doubt, leave it alone. It's not a matter of *which* is more
intelligent, so much as whether there's any intelligence at all.

This precautionary principle seems to me to indicate we need to radically
revise our treatment of chimps and dolphins at minimum. The problem with a
formulation of moral value in terms of a hypothetical clear division
between intelligent and not intelligent is that you inevitably have to
admit that in practice there is a grey area. This (among other
things) suggests to me that a formulation in terms of a continuum between
the smartest human and the simplest virus is better. It leads to a
hierarchy (and of course, uncertainty about what falls where in the
hierarchy) of moral worth, which is trickier to reason with, but a better
fit to reality, IMO.

Aside from the scientific value, what is the ethical difference
between colonizing large parts of Mars with earth life, wiping out the
native stuff in those regions, and cleaning a toilet bowl?

Well, for one thing, presumably you either own the toilet or have the
owner's permission :-)

More seriously there are other interests as well as scientific (esthetic,
for one), but the scientific value seems to me primary, which is
unsurprising since it's what I do for a living. The question of the
morality of terraforming is often posed in terms of wiping out some
organism we know is there. Much more likely is that we'll end up wiping
out ecosystems that we have no idea even exist. That's a much stickier
problem, since if we don't know they exist, how can we make moral
judgements about them unless those judgements are independent of the
attributes of the organisms (including intelligence or the lack thereof)?

Presuming we know exactly what it is that we're wiping out, and that it's
things similar to slime mold, extensive samples of which are held in
laboratories on Mars, Earth and other places, I'd have to come down on the
side of letting the creatures go extinct in the wild. I'm somewhat
uncomfortable with that conclusion, but perhaps that's appropriate.

.......Andrew
--
--
Andrew Case |
|

In sci.space.policy Bent C Dalager wrote:
In article ,
Kaido Kert wrote:
This either a) makes the assumption that this particular ecosystem will not
evolve into intelligent life later on or b) being there first grants us
right to destroy its chances of becoming intellingent later on

This way lies paralysis. Everything we do and do not do affects the
future. We cannot base our actions (or lack thereof) on wild
speculations about what might or might not happen in a couple of
million years time.

If I go down to the store and purchase something from the lady behind
the counter, perhaps this made her not notice the handsome guy who
walked past behind me. Perhaps this is the one single occurrence that
caused them not to meet, fall in love, get married and have
children. Would this mean that I, in some moral sense, killed her
children that are never to be? Would this mean I should never go to
the store?

We should base our actions on realistic expectations of the effect
they will have on the world.

the only realistic expectation without extra data is that native higher
lifeforms will never appear on Mars. Even so, it appears extermely
unlikely. What might happen is thatthere willbe unique adapedto Mars
forms of cokroaces, possibly some rodents, etc. in addition to say
cetipedes and earthworms which probably will get deliverately introduced.


Cheers
Bent D

--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++