No Red Space Menace

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" a écrit dans le message de
...


Simply launch it with a docking adaptor in the front, dock your craft to
it
and fly to the Moon. It may seem "backwards" but in space, who cars?


And this has already been done, at least partially, by docking an Agena in
front of a Gemini capsule and boosting the orbit to a very high apogee. The
crew had the first view of the earth as a distant planet. The original plan
was to use the Gemini-Agena train assembled in LEO to do a moon flyby to
beat the Russians if needed, but Apollo was getting ready to fly and the
honour of the first flyby was left to Apollo 8. People in the Gemini project
was not terribly happy about that. It's interesting to note that the Gemini
program made a 2 weeks mission just to prepare for the lunar flyby mission.

Looking at the chinese craft, I suspect that a lunar flyby could be within
its capability by eliminating the orbital module (like the russians did with
the Zond derivative of Soyuz) and docking with an agena_like upper stage.
The capsule is bigger than Soyuz and should accomodate one or two astronauts
for the trip.

"Raymond Chuang" writes:

I'm not sure if the Chinese want to do Earth orbit rendezvous assembly of a
spacecraft that can travel to the Moon.

For one thing, that means a Shenzhou spacecraft will have to be assembled
with a fully-fueled rocket stage in the back, something that can be a bit
dangerous, to say the least.

Why? It's a simple docking operation, right? Docking is something
they hope to test "soon" in earth orbit by docking a Shenzhou with a
Shenzhou orbital module left from a previous mission.

I still think for Shenzhou to fly to the Moon it will require a Proton-class
rocket to pull it off, if only to avoid the potential difficulties to EOR
spacecraft assembly.

You're being narrow minded. The US and Russia developed very large
launch vehicles for reasons other than necessity. Certainly it made lunar
missions easier having Proton and larger launch vehicles, but they
weren't strictly necessary.

Please note that, at the time, the US and Russia were in a "space
race". China is so far "behind" that time is not important. If it
took three launches over the span of several months, or even a year or
more, just to assemble the vehicle in LEO, it would be of little
consequence in terms of schedule.

Putting a man in space happened in China more than 40 years after the
US and Russia. I doubt there is any real pressure for them to put a
man on the moon "before the decade is out".

Jeff
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(Henry Spencer) writes:

In article t,
Raymond Chuang wrote:
Right now, the Shenzhou spacecraft ... could
in theory be used on a mission to the Moon.
But first, the Chinese need to build a much more powerful man-rated booster
rocket than the Long March 2F used to launch Shenzhou. The Chinese will need
at least a rocket in the Russian Proton class...

Yep, like the Long March 3B, which is already in service.

I wonder if the Long March 3B could put a large enough stage in LEO in
order to send a stripped down Shenzhou around the moon. In any case,
you could still launch Shenzhou on the existing Long March 2F. There
is nothing about EOR that requires that you launch the pieces on the
same type of launch vehicle.

Jeff
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In article ,
Giovanni Galeazzi wrote:
...The original plan
was to use the Gemini-Agena train assembled in LEO to do a moon flyby to
beat the Russians if needed...

Not quite. The concept was to use a Centaur instead of the Agena. And it
wasn't "the original plan" except perhaps in the minds of a few of the
more ambitious Gemini planners -- the official NASA plan was that Gemini
was an Earth-orbit program checking out technology for Apollo, period.

...It's interesting to note that the Gemini
program made a 2 weeks mission just to prepare for the lunar flyby mission.

No, Gemini flew a 2-week mission to verify that free-fall biomedical
effects would not be a problem for Apollo. A lunar flyby only takes about
one week.

Looking at the chinese craft, I suspect that a lunar flyby could be within
its capability by eliminating the orbital module (like the russians did with
the Zond derivative of Soyuz) and docking with an agena_like upper stage.

You'd need something bigger than Agena... and in any case, a Long March 3B
should suffice to do it direct, the same way Proton launched the Zonds.
--
MOST launched 1015 EDT 30 June, separated 1046, | Henry Spencer
first ground-station pass 1651, all nominal! |

In article . net,
Raymond Chuang wrote:
Yep, like the Long March 3B, which is already in service.

Nope. I still think China will need something along the lines of the Long
March Next Generation Launch Vehicle (NGLV) if they want to fly Shenzhou to
the Moon and back.

Why? Zond -- a Soyuz derivative -- went around the Moon with a Proton
launch, and LM3B actually has a bigger payload to GTO (and hence probably
to lunar flyby) than Proton.
--
MOST launched 1015 EDT 30 June, separated 1046, | Henry Spencer
first ground-station pass 1651, all nominal! |

In article ,
jeff findley wrote:
at least a rocket in the Russian Proton class...
Yep, like the Long March 3B, which is already in service.

I wonder if the Long March 3B could put a large enough stage in LEO in
order to send a stripped down Shenzhou around the moon.

No need to stop off in LEO. Proton sent a stripped-down Soyuz around the
Moon, and LM3B actually has a bigger payload to GTO (a reasonable proxy
for lunar-flyby payload) than Proton.
--
MOST launched 1015 EDT 30 June, separated 1046, | Henry Spencer
first ground-station pass 1651, all nominal! |

"Henry Spencer" wrote in message
...

Why? Zond -- a Soyuz derivative -- went around the Moon with a Proton
launch, and LM3B actually has a bigger payload to GTO (and hence probably
to lunar flyby) than Proton.

However, if I remember correctly, the Zond vehicle launched by the Proton
rocket was essentially a stripped-down Soyuz spacecraft that made the trip.
Given that Shenzhou has enough electrical power and enough oxygen supply for
a 7+ day mission, this means Shenzhou is a fairly heavy spacecraft, and I
have some doubts that the CZ-3B(A) launch rocket could fly Shenzhou on a
circumlunar mission profile.

--
Raymond Chuang
Sacramento, CA USA

In article . net,
Raymond Chuang wrote:
Why? Zond -- a Soyuz derivative -- went around the Moon with a Proton
launch, and LM3B actually has a bigger payload to GTO (and hence probably
to lunar flyby) than Proton.

However, if I remember correctly, the Zond vehicle launched by the Proton
rocket was essentially a stripped-down Soyuz spacecraft that made the trip.

Correct. The Chinese could quite reasonably strip down a Shenzhou the
same way.
--
MOST launched 1015 EDT 30 June, separated 1046, | Henry Spencer
first ground-station pass 1651, all nominal! |

"Henry Spencer" wrote in message
...

Correct. The Chinese could quite reasonably strip down a Shenzhou the
same way.

Mind you, the horrible success rate of Zond was one reason why the Russians
never tried to fly a cosmonaut on a Zond mission.

This is good reason why I think the Chinese will wait until the Long March
NGLV is ready before they attempt a flight to the Moon and back. :-)

--
Raymond Chuang
Sacramento, CA USA