...Ares1-X FAILURE...N KOREA Offers NASA Technical Advice~

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

As I listened to the radio at work, to my great relief and joy
the good news came about the highly anticipated Ares1-X
launch, our new manned booster for the future.
..and I QUOTE.....

....."The rocket performed as expected".

So, I just now went over to NASA TV to watch and enjoy
the successful launch. Happy knowing such a significant
event went so very well. Yet, to my laymen's eyes I witness
a couple of rather p e c u l i a r things . Little details
the jubilant press release seemed to have l e f t o u t.

Minor details!

Like watching this rocket make it's first turn before it
even clears HALF the tower. And watching the booster
slam headlong into the payload sending it careening into
OBLIVION with no hope of a safe abort.

A payload meant for our PEOPLE btw.
The quotation marks below are mine.

NASA's Ares I-X Rocket Completes "Successful" Flight Test
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/co...res/index.html

Hmm, I thought to myself, they EXPECTED that to happen?
WOW! Like I said, truth is stranger than fiction, read below
for proof of this please...I mean...gawd! Someone pinch me!

Doublethink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink


Now we see what happens as a result of the wrong kind of
space-race. A race meant to hurry up and spend an unpopular
Moon project into existence. A race to see which gets "fired" first
former NASA chief Griffin or ...Ares1-X Moon Rocket?

Mercifully, for his sake, Griffin was fired first.

NASA's manned space flight program is hereby officially a
Train Wreck in slow motion. Tumbling aimlessly towards
an inevitable fate, just like that payload.

Let's just pretend the last fifty years never happened...OK?
Announce a Do-Over! With something useful, like below.
so someday endless clean energy ...falls from the sky...
as our TV and phone calls do now.

NASA'S SPACE SOLAR POWER EXPLORATORY
RESEARCH AND TECHNOLOGY (SERT) PROGRAM
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10202&page=1


Jonathan





s

Yes, though not actually seen it, I suspect the following is more truthful..

First test launch of Ares.
Low speed stabilisation needs better algorithm to stop drift and rotation
immediately after launch
Upper stage should be released in a different way to stop spasmodic
afterburning of booster from creating a collision with upper stage
More work on parachute reliability after burn out and clearance of upper
stages needed.

Now maybe all of these things are pretty simple to fix, I don't know, but
surely this means another launch to test they have been fixed?

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

As I listened to the radio at work, to my great relief and joy
the good news came about the highly anticipated Ares1-X
launch, our new manned booster for the future.
..and I QUOTE.....

...."The rocket performed as expected".

So, I just now went over to NASA TV to watch and enjoy
the successful launch. Happy knowing such a significant
event went so very well. Yet, to my laymen's eyes I witness
a couple of rather p e c u l i a r things . Little details
the jubilant press release seemed to have l e f t o u t.

Minor details!

Like watching this rocket make it's first turn before it
even clears HALF the tower. And watching the booster
slam headlong into the payload sending it careening into
OBLIVION with no hope of a safe abort.

A payload meant for our PEOPLE btw.
The quotation marks below are mine.

NASA's Ares I-X Rocket Completes "Successful" Flight Test
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/co...res/index.html

Hmm, I thought to myself, they EXPECTED that to happen?
WOW! Like I said, truth is stranger than fiction, read below
for proof of this please...I mean...gawd! Someone pinch me!

Doublethink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink


Now we see what happens as a result of the wrong kind of
space-race. A race meant to hurry up and spend an unpopular
Moon project into existence. A race to see which gets "fired" first
former NASA chief Griffin or ...Ares1-X Moon Rocket?

Mercifully, for his sake, Griffin was fired first.

NASA's manned space flight program is hereby officially a
Train Wreck in slow motion. Tumbling aimlessly towards
an inevitable fate, just like that payload.

Let's just pretend the last fifty years never happened...OK?
Announce a Do-Over! With something useful, like below.
so someday endless clean energy ...falls from the sky...
as our TV and phone calls do now.

NASA'S SPACE SOLAR POWER EXPLORATORY
RESEARCH AND TECHNOLOGY (SERT) PROGRAM
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10202&page=1


Jonathan





s

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Yes, though not actually seen it, I suspect the following is more
truthful..

First test launch of Ares.
Low speed stabilisation needs better algorithm to stop drift and rotation
immediately after launch
Upper stage should be released in a different way to stop spasmodic
afterburning of booster from creating a collision with upper stage
More work on parachute reliability after burn out and clearance of upper
stages needed.

Now maybe all of these things are pretty simple to fix, I don't know, but
surely this means another launch to test they have been fixed?

The next flight, Ares I-Y, is scheduled for March 2014. We'll be waiting
quite a long time and pouring billions of dollars into this program before
we have any real indication that progress is being made. Ares I-X didn't
instill any confidence in the design because it's not representative of
flight hardware.

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon

Yup, its justa few odd bits cobbled together. I suspect the only ral data
they expect to get is that on vibration, and it will be that which dictates
whether its best to carry on or not.


I was listening to some of the astronaut interviews last evening, and
reading between the lines I feel that they all want an upgraded shuttle
rather than a tin can to ride in,

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Yes, though not actually seen it, I suspect the following is more
truthful..

First test launch of Ares.
Low speed stabilisation needs better algorithm to stop drift and rotation
immediately after launch
Upper stage should be released in a different way to stop spasmodic
afterburning of booster from creating a collision with upper stage
More work on parachute reliability after burn out and clearance of upper
stages needed.

Now maybe all of these things are pretty simple to fix, I don't know, but
surely this means another launch to test they have been fixed?

The next flight, Ares I-Y, is scheduled for March 2014. We'll be waiting
quite a long time and pouring billions of dollars into this program before
we have any real indication that progress is being made. Ares I-X didn't
instill any confidence in the design because it's not representative of
flight hardware.

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Yup, its justa few odd bits cobbled together. I suspect the only ral data
they expect to get is that on vibration, and it will be that which dictates
whether its best to carry on or not.


I was listening to some of the astronaut interviews last evening, and reading
between the lines I feel that they all want an upgraded shuttle rather than a
tin can to ride in,


I think this is the direction we should be going...
Small shuttles launched on top of a conventional
booster for now, maybe SSTO down the road.

U.S. Air Force Aims to Launch Space Plane
Next Year
http://www.space.com/news/090602-x-37b-space-plane.html


In any event, it doesn't look like Ares will be helping
keep the ISS fully staffed with US astronauts
any time soon.

Looks like the Russians might be holding the pink slip
on the ISS pretty soon, while we're still making the payments.

s







Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"Jeff Findley" wrote in message
...

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Yes, though not actually seen it, I suspect the following is more truthful..

First test launch of Ares.
Low speed stabilisation needs better algorithm to stop drift and rotation
immediately after launch
Upper stage should be released in a different way to stop spasmodic
afterburning of booster from creating a collision with upper stage
More work on parachute reliability after burn out and clearance of upper
stages needed.

Now maybe all of these things are pretty simple to fix, I don't know, but
surely this means another launch to test they have been fixed?

The next flight, Ares I-Y, is scheduled for March 2014. We'll be waiting
quite a long time and pouring billions of dollars into this program before we
have any real indication that progress is being made. Ares I-X didn't
instill any confidence in the design because it's not representative of
flight hardware.

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:12:57 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Yup, its justa few odd bits cobbled together. I suspect the only ral data
they expect to get is that on vibration, and it will be that which dictates
whether its best to carry on or not.


I was listening to some of the astronaut interviews last evening, and
reading between the lines I feel that they all want an upgraded shuttle
rather than a tin can to ride in,

Brian



I suppose they could always mount an Apollo-type capsule on top the
the orange External Tank. At least they know the shuttle engines,
external tank, and solid rocket boosters work just fine.

And BTW, they should plan on taking that External Tank all the way
to orbit!!!

Yeah, I know, it will never happen, but it could if some
proper-thinking human being every took charge of NASA. It's still not
too late, although time is growing short.

Right now, they are phasing out the most successful launch system in
history (the shuttle launch system), and won't even have a way to
reach the space station without Russian help for years to come.

How pathetic is that.

Poor NASA, it could have been so good! You had and have all the
equipment and money you needed to do a space station program and a
Moon program and maybe even a Mars (well Phobos) program, and then
ignorant human beings got involved and mucked it all up.

Where's Pat when I need him?

TA

On Dec 3, 11:02*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:12:57 GMT, "Brian Gaff"

wrote:
Yup, its *justa few odd bits cobbled together. I suspect the only ral data
they expect to get is that on vibration, and it will be that which dictates
whether its best to carry on or not.

I was listening to *some of the astronaut interviews last evening, and
reading between the lines I feel that they all want an upgraded shuttle
rather than a tin can to *ride in,

Brian

* I suppose they could always mount an Apollo-type capsule on top the
the orange External Tank. *At least they know the shuttle engines,
external tank, and solid rocket boosters work just fine.

* And BTW, they should plan on taking that External Tank all the way
to orbit!!!

* Yeah, I know, it will never happen, but it could if some
proper-thinking human being every took charge of NASA. *It's still not
too late, although time is growing short.

* Right now, they are phasing out the most successful launch system in
history (the shuttle launch system), and won't even have a way to
reach the space station without Russian help for years to come.

* How pathetic is that.

* Poor NASA, it could have been so good! *You had and have all the
equipment and money you needed to do a space station program and a
Moon program and maybe even a Mars (well Phobos) program, and then
ignorant human beings got involved and mucked it all up.

* Where's Pat when I need him?

TA

The shift from Space Station Freedom to the ISS comes to mind.

wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:12:57 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Yup, its justa few odd bits cobbled together. I suspect the only ral data
they expect to get is that on vibration, and it will be that which dictates
whether its best to carry on or not.


I was listening to some of the astronaut interviews last evening, and
reading between the lines I feel that they all want an upgraded shuttle
rather than a tin can to ride in,

Brian



I suppose they could always mount an Apollo-type capsule on top the
the orange External Tank. At least they know the shuttle engines,
external tank, and solid rocket boosters work just fine.

And BTW, they should plan on taking that External Tank all the way
to orbit!!!

Yeah, I know, it will never happen, but it could if some
proper-thinking human being every took charge of NASA. It's still not
too late, although time is growing short.

Right now, they are phasing out the most successful launch system in
history (the shuttle launch system), and won't even have a way to
reach the space station without Russian help for years to come.

How pathetic is that.

Poor NASA, it could have been so good! You had and have all the
equipment and money you needed to do a space station program and a
Moon program and maybe even a Mars (well Phobos) program, and then
ignorant human beings got involved and mucked it all up.

Where's Pat when I need him?


What you are describing is very close to the Jupiter/DIRECT launch
vehicle that was proposed to replace both the Ares 1 and Ares V:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIRECT
The Augustine Commission however seemed to favor something like the old
Shuttle C concept with a capsule atop the cargo pod.
Jupiter/DIRECT was criticized as being too large for just taking Orion
into orbit, and too small for the Lunar mission via Earth orbital
rendezvous and docking.

Pat

Jeff Findley wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Yes, though not actually seen it, I suspect the following is more
truthful..

First test launch of Ares.
Low speed stabilisation needs better algorithm to stop drift and rotation
immediately after launch
Upper stage should be released in a different way to stop spasmodic
afterburning of booster from creating a collision with upper stage
As was pointed out elsewhere (in a different thread?) none of the NASA
animations I have seen of what was expected had the upper stage in rotation.
Would it be correct to assume that rotation was induced by the collision with
the lower stage?

Would ignition of the J2-X on the upper stage be enough to guarantee clearance
from the lower solid stage regardless of 'spasmodic afterburning?' Maybe release
the upper stage a little sooner before the solid stage attains burn-out?


More work on parachute reliability after burn out and clearance of upper
stages needed.

Now maybe all of these things are pretty simple to fix, I don't know, but
surely this means another launch to test they have been fixed?

The next flight, Ares I-Y, is scheduled for March 2014. We'll be waiting
quite a long time and pouring billions of dollars into this program before
we have any real indication that progress is being made. Ares I-X didn't
instill any confidence in the design because it's not representative of
flight hardware.

What is supposed to be the configuration for Ares 1-Y? Full operative
upper stage and Orion capsule? What are the mission goals? Are they expecting
a full-up orbital mission with automated capsule recovery?

Dave

David Spain wrote:
Would ignition of the J2-X on the upper stage be enough to guarantee
clearance
from the lower solid stage regardless of 'spasmodic afterburning?' Maybe
release
the upper stage a little sooner before the solid stage attains burn-out?


[snip]

What is supposed to be the configuration for Ares 1-Y? Full operative
upper stage and Orion capsule? What are the mission goals? Are they
expecting
a full-up orbital mission with automated capsule recovery?

Dave

There have been a lot of posts in different threads and in different groups
about this. Makes me wish back for the simpler times when there was only
sci.space to post within. As such most of my questions have already been
answered elsewhere.

Dave