More on Green Laser Concerns....

Please see the below responses I've received from others, including a
response from a member of the Ilda (International Laser Display
Association.)

I believe some people took or may take my "I'm glad I don't own a green
laser" comment out of context in a way meaning I didn't find them
valuable to "astronomy education."

While I don't own one, I used to, and I do see their value in astronomy
education and public outreach. I do commonly use another's responsibly
but felt no need to own one of my own anymore. Maybe I felt it was only
a matter of time till I would be "limited" in my use of them. I also
feel they're great for public outreach in this day and age, it allows
you to really point out something to people, but I will point out
plenty of people learned the constellations before the advent of green
lasers.

I've seen too many people hit in the eye with one of these and with the
price coming down saw that irresponsible use of these would soon be
commonplace. The "red" laser pointer was a great thing until it got a
bad rap from kids taking them to school or public places and
"accidentally" shooting others in the eye with them. I remember
countless lawsuits in this area from red laser incidents.

I also heard someone respond to my e-mail pretty peeved saying that
every astronomer who owns one uses them responsibly. I think that's a
questionable claim. No matter how responsibly someone tries to use
them, accidents happen, and blatant misuse is bound to occur. I've seen
some of the most "responsible" people accidentally beam something they
hadn't intended too or out of curiosity point it at objects other than
in the sky.

And yes, I will say that I saw people at a Star Party when these things
first became popular trying to light up the belly of airplanes and
cautioned those I saw doing it against that.

Here are some other interesting responses that have came out on other
groups I belong too:

Two more high visibility reports came out today. One from Yahoo news
and another in Denver. They stated "green lasers" in them.
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/041230/ap/d879nei00.html
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,...625514,00.html

And here's a interesting response from Rob a member of the ILDA:

"Hi Ted and Everyone,

I feel I should pipe in here. I spent some years working with lasers
within the entertainment industry. And I'm still a member of Ilda
(International Laser Display Association, which is based in the US) .
While it is true in the US you need whats called a "Variance Permit"
for each and every laser system you own and use publicly over 5mw, And
if you get caught using one without a permit. You will be fined, and
have your laser confiscated by the CDRH officers who are the people who
police those laws within the US. The FAA got involved due too the
incidents involving an aircraft.

We in the laser community have been following this story since it
broke,mAlthough the CDRH andmFAA are not pointing the finger at our
industry, they have asked for our help within the US. Infact I would be
interested to hear from anyone with information regarding following
incidences.

On 11/21/04 at 1925 PST, 3 miles north of San Diego, the Sanyo Blimp
(N15AB) was illuminated by a green laser reported to San Diego Tower,
no injury.

On 12/6/04 at 2026 PST, 5 miles southwest of San Jose at 6000 feet,
Southwest 2659 (B737) reported a green laser illuminated the cockpit,
no injury. The co-pilot did complain of eye irritation.

However I would like to say a 5mw laser IS NOT a high powered laser,
these devices are commonly found in laser pointers, scanning devices in
your local supermarket and the like. Actually 5mw would be the biggest
of these devices they are usually around the .25mw range. It is never
advisable to point such a devices into the eyes of anyone's, even at
these lower powers. The is allot to consider and there has been great
discussion within the laser community. Regarding the ability to bring
down an aircraft with a laser by blinding the pilots. And I could sit
here and type out all the variables, beam convergence, power drop off,
and not to mention the ability to be able
to accurately track an aircrafts cockpit window 6000 feet in the air
traveling at xxxkph, just to name just a few. Even if you use a
20-40watt laser, now these systems can do real damage. You can swing
you hand past the nose of a 20watt laser turned up to full power and
receive a 3rd degree burn across your hand, 20-30 meters down the track
you will still be able to light a cigarette off the beam, but a 6000
feet the beam will have blown out to several feet in diameter losing
allot of it power, I also might add that 20watt laser can fire a beam
some 50kms depending on atmospheric conditions.

Although it has never occurred to me that an amateur astronomer maybe
either by accident or on purpose be involved in these incidences. It is
something that Ilda will now consider.

So if anyone knows of anyone playing with these devices in such a way.
I would really like to hear about it. As it is these types of incidents
that can bring down the laser
industry within the US.

We in the laser community feel that the media is blowing this out of
proportion (through not being educated about lasers, and also paranoia
from the current administration. I guess the US needs to look at all
the possibilities."

Anyways, this is a very interesting issue and I'm enjoying reading the
responses I'm hearing. Happy New Years to Everyone!
Regards,
Ted A. Nichols II
President - ASH
www.astrohbg.org

Ted Nichols II wrote:
Please see the below responses I've received from others, including a
response from a member of the Ilda (International Laser Display
Association.)

I believe some people took or may take my "I'm glad I don't own a green
laser" comment out of context in a way meaning I didn't find them
valuable to "astronomy education."

While I don't own one, I used to, and I do see their value in astronomy
education and public outreach. I do commonly use another's responsibly
but felt no need to own one of my own anymore. Maybe I felt it was only
a matter of time till I would be "limited" in my use of them. I also
feel they're great for public outreach in this day and age, it allows
you to really point out something to people, but I will point out
plenty of people learned the constellations before the advent of green
lasers.

I've seen too many people hit in the eye with one of these and with the
price coming down saw that irresponsible use of these would soon be
commonplace. The "red" laser pointer was a great thing until it got a
bad rap from kids taking them to school or public places and
"accidentally" shooting others in the eye with them. I remember
countless lawsuits in this area from red laser incidents.

I also heard someone respond to my e-mail pretty peeved saying that
every astronomer who owns one uses them responsibly. I think that's a
questionable claim. No matter how responsibly someone tries to use
them, accidents happen, and blatant misuse is bound to occur. I've seen
some of the most "responsible" people accidentally beam something they
hadn't intended too or out of curiosity point it at objects other than
in the sky.

And yes, I will say that I saw people at a Star Party when these things
first became popular trying to light up the belly of airplanes and
cautioned those I saw doing it against that.

Here are some other interesting responses that have came out on other
groups I belong too:

Two more high visibility reports came out today. One from Yahoo news
and another in Denver. They stated "green lasers" in them.
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/041230/ap/d879nei00.html
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,...625514,00.html

And here's a interesting response from Rob a member of the ILDA:

"Hi Ted and Everyone,

I feel I should pipe in here. I spent some years working with lasers
within the entertainment industry. And I'm still a member of Ilda
(International Laser Display Association, which is based in the US) .
While it is true in the US you need whats called a "Variance Permit"
for each and every laser system you own and use publicly over 5mw, And
if you get caught using one without a permit. You will be fined, and
have your laser confiscated by the CDRH officers who are the people who
police those laws within the US. The FAA got involved due too the
incidents involving an aircraft.

We in the laser community have been following this story since it
broke,mAlthough the CDRH andmFAA are not pointing the finger at our
industry, they have asked for our help within the US. Infact I would be
interested to hear from anyone with information regarding following
incidences.

On 11/21/04 at 1925 PST, 3 miles north of San Diego, the Sanyo Blimp
(N15AB) was illuminated by a green laser reported to San Diego Tower,
no injury.

On 12/6/04 at 2026 PST, 5 miles southwest of San Jose at 6000 feet,
Southwest 2659 (B737) reported a green laser illuminated the cockpit,
no injury. The co-pilot did complain of eye irritation.

However I would like to say a 5mw laser IS NOT a high powered laser,
these devices are commonly found in laser pointers, scanning devices in
your local supermarket and the like. Actually 5mw would be the biggest
of these devices they are usually around the .25mw range. It is never
advisable to point such a devices into the eyes of anyone's, even at
these lower powers. The is allot to consider and there has been great
discussion within the laser community. Regarding the ability to bring
down an aircraft with a laser by blinding the pilots. And I could sit
here and type out all the variables, beam convergence, power drop off,
and not to mention the ability to be able
to accurately track an aircrafts cockpit window 6000 feet in the air
traveling at xxxkph, just to name just a few. Even if you use a
20-40watt laser, now these systems can do real damage. You can swing
you hand past the nose of a 20watt laser turned up to full power and
receive a 3rd degree burn across your hand, 20-30 meters down the track
you will still be able to light a cigarette off the beam, but a 6000
feet the beam will have blown out to several feet in diameter losing
allot of it power, I also might add that 20watt laser can fire a beam
some 50kms depending on atmospheric conditions.

Although it has never occurred to me that an amateur astronomer maybe
either by accident or on purpose be involved in these incidences. It is
something that Ilda will now consider.

So if anyone knows of anyone playing with these devices in such a way.
I would really like to hear about it. As it is these types of incidents
that can bring down the laser
industry within the US.

We in the laser community feel that the media is blowing this out of
proportion (through not being educated about lasers, and also paranoia
from the current administration. I guess the US needs to look at all
the possibilities."

Anyways, this is a very interesting issue and I'm enjoying reading the
responses I'm hearing. Happy New Years to Everyone!
Regards,
Ted A. Nichols II
President - ASH
www.astrohbg.org


I own a firearm. Actually, I own several firearms. I use them
responsibly, keep them locked away with trigger locks in place when not
in use, lock up the ammunition separately. There are, however, some
fools who use their firearms indiscriminately, some even use them to
commit murder. Should I get rid of my firearms because of these few
lawbreakers?

Ditto for my green laser. I never even thought of using it to light up
the belly of an aircraft. I use it only in brief bursts and then only
when someone is having a real problem not seeing the object I am
pointing to. Think I'll keep it and continue to use it responsibly.

J

On 30 Dec 2004 13:30:24 -0800, Ted Nichols II
wrote:

I also
feel they're great for public outreach in this day and age, it allows
you to really point out something to people, but I will point out
plenty of people learned the constellations before the advent of green
lasers.

Sure. There are a lot of things that were done without modern
technology. But this very tired argument, which seems to get applied to
just about everything new, is just meaningless. People crossed continents
without airplanes (it just took days instead of hours). People got
information from the other side of the world without radio and television
(it just took weeks instead of minutes). People did mathematical analysis
without computers (it just sometimes took years instead of seconds).
Astronomers took deep sky photos without CCDs (it just took longer,
etc.). And people taught the constellations without green laser
pointers. It's just far easier, faster and more effective with a green
laser pointer. And that goes for quite a lot of new technology. You can
always say something was accomplished before and the new methods aren't
necessary. But it very rarely turns out the old way was better for the
majority of people. If it were, the majority of people would still be
doing it the old way.

Sorry, Ted, but this isn't just aimed at your innocent comment. You made
it clear you favor the laser for this purpose. I just seem to be noticing
that kind of argument a lot lately. And the grumpy old men who use it
make me very grumpy indeed! ;-)

Mike Simmons
Old crumudgeon in training

On 30 Dec 2004 13:30:24 -0800, "Ted Nichols II"
wrote:

Please see the below responses I've received from others, including a
response from a member of the Ilda (International Laser Display
Association.)

I believe some people took or may take my "I'm glad I don't own a green
laser" comment out of context in a way meaning I didn't find them
valuable to "astronomy education."

While I don't own one, I used to, and I do see their value in astronomy
education and public outreach. I do commonly use another's responsibly
but felt no need to own one of my own anymore. Maybe I felt it was only
a matter of time till I would be "limited" in my use of them. I also
feel they're great for public outreach in this day and age, it allows
you to really point out something to people, but I will point out
plenty of people learned the constellations before the advent of green
lasers.

I've seen too many people hit in the eye with one of these and with the
price coming down saw that irresponsible use of these would soon be
commonplace. The "red" laser pointer was a great thing until it got a
bad rap from kids taking them to school or public places and
"accidentally" shooting others in the eye with them. I remember
countless lawsuits in this area from red laser incidents.

I also heard someone respond to my e-mail pretty peeved saying that
every astronomer who owns one uses them responsibly. I think that's a
questionable claim. No matter how responsibly someone tries to use
them, accidents happen, and blatant misuse is bound to occur. I've seen
some of the most "responsible" people accidentally beam something they
hadn't intended too or out of curiosity point it at objects other than
in the sky.

And yes, I will say that I saw people at a Star Party when these things
first became popular trying to light up the belly of airplanes and
cautioned those I saw doing it against that.

Here are some other interesting responses that have came out on other
groups I belong too:

Two more high visibility reports came out today. One from Yahoo news
and another in Denver. They stated "green lasers" in them.
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/041230/ap/d879nei00.html
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,...625514,00.html


This is all such nonsense. Beam divergence with these "toys" is on
the order of 30% at 15ft, for a GOOD one. At 8500 feet, the beam
is going to be about a meter across! How "illuminating" was it in
that cockpit? Unless someone has got some well-made collimating
optics, I doubt the story.
-Rich

Yeah, they'll get my green laser when they can pry it from my cold dead
hands.
Green lasers don't illuminate aircraft, people with green lasers do.

Matthew Ota




I own a firearm. Actually, I own several firearms. I use them
responsibly, keep them locked away with trigger locks in place when not
in use, lock up the ammunition separately. There are, however, some
fools who use their firearms indiscriminately, some even use them to
commit murder. Should I get rid of my firearms because of these few
lawbreakers?

Ditto for my green laser. I never even thought of using it to light up
the belly of an aircraft. I use it only in brief bursts and then only
when someone is having a real problem not seeing the object I am
pointing to. Think I'll keep it and continue to use it responsibly.

J

I own a firearm. Actually, I own several firearms. I use them
responsibly, keep them locked away with trigger locks in place when not
in use, lock up the ammunition separately. There are, however, some
fools who use their firearms indiscriminately, some even use them to
commit murder. Should I get rid of my firearms because of these few
lawbreakers?

Ditto for my green laser. I never even thought of using it to light up
the belly of an aircraft. I use it only in brief bursts and then only
when someone is having a real problem not seeing the object I am
pointing to. Think I'll keep it and continue to use it responsibly.


IMHO, responsible users should have no difficulty understanding that these
devices are potentially dangerous and that it is indeed quite common for both
guns and lasers to be used in an irresponsible manner.

The only device I know of that is involved in more deaths is the automobile.

I personally have no problem with people being required to have a drivers
license in order to operate a vehicle on the public roads. This indicates one
has a certain understanding of the regulations, a certain understanding of the
potential dangers involved and an agreement to abide by those regulations.

I also have no problem with requiring training for use of firearms and lasers
which fall into the class 3B or greater mode.

These are not toys but both are often treated as toys.

Jon

Wait a minute Jon, you forgot about alcohol and cell phones.... and
fast food

The only device I know of that is involved in more deaths is the
automobile.

12V hair driers
Electric Razors
Splash and spill resistant coffee mugs

And any combination thereof, being in use at any one time in the high
speed lane

Mark wrote:
Wait a minute Jon, you forgot about alcohol and cell phones.... and
fast food


The only device I know of that is involved in more deaths is the

automobile.

Wait a minute Jon, you forgot about alcohol and cell phones.... and
fast food

The only device I know of that is involved in more deaths is the
automobile.

Alcohol is not a device and cell phones, while I despise their use while
driving, are not involved in the number of deaths that cars are...

Not really a laughing matter....

jon