The "Triplets" thought experiment

The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
_________________________________

"Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.
After a while, Terra, who considers that Galaxy flies away
from her at a velocity v, claims that Galaxy is now younger
than her, like GRists claim that time goes slower on supernovae
because of space expansion (see (1) below).
According to Terence, both Terra and the GRists are wrong,
because Terra's clock and Galaxy's clock tick at the same
rate."

A GRist comment:
_______________

It is irrelevant for the cosmological time dilation.

My reponse:
__________

Why is it irrelevant? Are not remote galaxies receeding from
Earth with some velocity, which is a function of their distance?
Is such velocity only "apparent", Iow not real? If it is a mere
illusion, how will one explain the Doppler shift?
And if it is real (for those believing in expansion of course,
I have to dot the i's), and some galaxy at distance d from Earth
moves at v wrt the Earth, does not the Earth moves at the same
velocity wrt the galaxy? For an Earth observer, is not the time
on the galaxy slowed down by some factor wrt the time on Earth?
And for the galactic observer, is not time on Earth slowed
down by the same factor wrt its own time? Does this not logically
mean that the Earth clock and the galactic clock tick at the same
rate, as claimed by Terence in the "Triplets thought experiment"?
As both clocks tick at the same rate, how can contemporary
cosmologists claim that a time dilation factor of (1 + z) works
on supernovae to lessen the delay in the rest frame?

And those who are interested in simple logic could read this
little tale:

5 years old's twin logic
________________________

After many months of sunless weather, Terra and Galaxy are
equally pale. Their mother decides that they need to stay
a week at a sunny southern beach.

The fourth day after their arrival, Terra says to Galaxy:
"How suntanned are you! I am sure that you are darker than me!".
And Galaxy replies: "You too are darker than me!".

Their mother then said: "Yes, you are both darker than 4 days
ago, but your colour is exactly the same. Your logic is
similar to that of cosmologists, who claim, like
Brian J. Barris et al. in arXiv: astro- ph/ 0310843 v1 29 Oct 2003:

"Typically, the discovery epoch of a high-z supernova
is a few days before maximum brightness, and although
the time dilation factor of (1 + z) works to lessen
the delay in the rest frame, etc...".

Your error is understandable, you are only 5 years old, but
contemporary cosmologists's deficient logic can only
be explained by the persistency of magical thinking. You will find
such persistency in astrology, big bang theory, relativity
theory, voodoo, etc...".


(1) From:

High Redshift Supernovae from the IfA Deep Survey:
Doubling the SN Sample at z 0 . 7

(arXiv: astro- ph/ 0310843 v1 29 Oct 2003)

Brian J. Barris, John L. Tonry, Stephane Blondin, Peter Challis,
Ryan Chornock, Alejandro Clocchiatti, Alexei V. Filippenko,
Peter Garnavich, Stephen T. Holland, Saurabh Jha, Robert P. Kirshner,
Kevin Krisciunas, Bruno Leibundgut, Weidong Li, Thomas Matheson,
Gajus Miknaitis, Adam G. Riess, Brian P. Schmidt, R. Chris Smith,
Jesper Sollerman, Jason Spyromilio, Christopher W. Stubbs, Nicholas
B. Suntzeff, Herve Aussel, K. C. Chambers, M. S. Connelley,
D. Donovan, J. Patrick Henry, Nick Kaiser, Michael C. Liu,
Eduardo L. Martin, and Richard J. Wainscoat

Excerpt (p.12):

"Typically, the discovery epoch of a high-z supernova
is a few days before maximum brightness, and although
the time dilation factor of (1 + z) works to lessen
the delay in the rest frame, etc...".

Marcel Luttgens

"Marcel Luttgens" bravely wrote to "All" (08 Jul 04 08:08:32)
--- on the heady topic of "The "Triplets" thought experiment"

ML From: (Marcel Luttgens)

ML The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
ML _________________________________

ML "Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
ML flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
ML Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.

The negative sign cancels and the acceleration is the same for both.
Thus the direction is only a misdirection on the part of the author.

A*s*i*m*o*v

.... Where's the KABOOM, there was supposed to be an earth shattering KABOO

"Marcel Luttgens" bravely wrote to "All" (08 Jul 04 08:08:32)
--- on the heady topic of "The "Triplets" thought experiment"

ML From: (Marcel Luttgens)

ML The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
ML _________________________________

ML "Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
ML flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
ML Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.

The negative sign cancels and the acceleration is the same for both.
Thus the direction is only a misdirection on the part of the author.

A*s*i*m*o*v

.... Where's the KABOOM, there was supposed to be an earth shattering KABOO

(Marcel Luttgens) wrote in message . com...
The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
_________________________________

"Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.
After a while, Terra, who considers that Galaxy flies away
from her at a velocity v

Only for v c.

(Marcel Luttgens) wrote in message . com...
The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
_________________________________

"Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.
After a while, Terra, who considers that Galaxy flies away
from her at a velocity v

Only for v c.

"phobos" wrote in message om...
(Marcel Luttgens) wrote in message . com...
The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
_________________________________

"Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.
After a while, Terra, who considers that Galaxy flies away
from her at a velocity v

Only for v c.

Don't worry about that. He has v c in mind, since
he perfectly knows that he does not understand even
the first letter of special relativity -- for starters, ask
him about events and coordinates. That's why he is
having a go now at the *much* simpler theory of
general relativity now ;-)

Dirk Vdm

"phobos" wrote in message om...
(Marcel Luttgens) wrote in message . com...
The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
_________________________________

"Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.
After a while, Terra, who considers that Galaxy flies away
from her at a velocity v

Only for v c.

Don't worry about that. He has v c in mind, since
he perfectly knows that he does not understand even
the first letter of special relativity -- for starters, ask
him about events and coordinates. That's why he is
having a go now at the *much* simpler theory of
general relativity now ;-)

Dirk Vdm

(phobos) wrote in message . com...
(Marcel Luttgens) wrote in message . com...

The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
_________________________________

"Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.
After a while, Terra, who considers that Galaxy flies away
from her at a velocity v

Only for v c.

Of course, but this a "short" story intending to introduce the matter.

For your information:

Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...
Marcel Luttgens wrote:
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...

Marcel Luttgens wrote:

Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...

Luttgens:
You are claiming that time on SN is dilated wrt time on Earth,

Feuerbacher:
I am claiming that the time on SN *at the time when the light was
emitted* *looks* dilated. Due to the expansion of space which happened
since the emission of the light. Nothing more.

Luttgens:
You should specify that it "looks" dilated by a factor f *to an Earth
observer*.
And you are forgetting that the time on Earth *at the time when the
light was emitted* *looks* dilated by the same factor f *to a supernova
observer*. This is a mere consequence of the Cosmological Principle,
according to which all positions in the universe are essentially
equivalent.

Mathematically, for an Earth observer, to a time interval t(earth)
corresponds a time interval
(1) t(supernova) = t(earth) * f, and symmetrically, for a galactic observer,
t(earth) = t(supernova) * f,
where f is the same time dilation factor. By replacing this
value of t(earth) in relation (1), one gets
t(supernova) = t(supernova) * f^2, which is only possible if f = 1.
Thus relation (1) reduces to t(supernova) = t(earth), meaning
that, contrary to the claim made by contemporary cosmologists, no
"time dilation factor works on supernovae to lessen the delay in
the rest frame".
Contemporary cosmologists, who base their claim on general
relativity, are simply wrong.

Maecel Luttgens

(phobos) wrote in message . com...
(Marcel Luttgens) wrote in message . com...

The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
_________________________________

"Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.
After a while, Terra, who considers that Galaxy flies away
from her at a velocity v

Only for v c.

Of course, but this a "short" story intending to introduce the matter.

For your information:

Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...
Marcel Luttgens wrote:
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...

Marcel Luttgens wrote:

Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...

Luttgens:
You are claiming that time on SN is dilated wrt time on Earth,

Feuerbacher:
I am claiming that the time on SN *at the time when the light was
emitted* *looks* dilated. Due to the expansion of space which happened
since the emission of the light. Nothing more.

Luttgens:
You should specify that it "looks" dilated by a factor f *to an Earth
observer*.
And you are forgetting that the time on Earth *at the time when the
light was emitted* *looks* dilated by the same factor f *to a supernova
observer*. This is a mere consequence of the Cosmological Principle,
according to which all positions in the universe are essentially
equivalent.

Mathematically, for an Earth observer, to a time interval t(earth)
corresponds a time interval
(1) t(supernova) = t(earth) * f, and symmetrically, for a galactic observer,
t(earth) = t(supernova) * f,
where f is the same time dilation factor. By replacing this
value of t(earth) in relation (1), one gets
t(supernova) = t(supernova) * f^2, which is only possible if f = 1.
Thus relation (1) reduces to t(supernova) = t(earth), meaning
that, contrary to the claim made by contemporary cosmologists, no
"time dilation factor works on supernovae to lessen the delay in
the rest frame".
Contemporary cosmologists, who base their claim on general
relativity, are simply wrong.

Maecel Luttgens

"Marcel Luttgens" wrote in message om...
(phobos) wrote in message . com...
(Marcel Luttgens) wrote in message . com...

The "Triplets" thought experiment (Adapted from the "Twin paradox")
_________________________________

"Terence sits at home on Earth. Galaxy (yes, it's her name)
flies off in a space ship at a velocity v/2. Simultaneously,
Terra (also a name) flies off in the opposite direction at -v/2.
After a while, Terra, who considers that Galaxy flies away
from her at a velocity v

Only for v c.

Of course, but this a "short" story intending to introduce the matter.

For your information:

Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...
Marcel Luttgens wrote:
Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...

Marcel Luttgens wrote:

Bjoern Feuerbacher wrote in message ...

Luttgens:
You are claiming that time on SN is dilated wrt time on Earth,

Feuerbacher:
I am claiming that the time on SN *at the time when the light was
emitted* *looks* dilated. Due to the expansion of space which happened
since the emission of the light. Nothing more.

Luttgens:
You should specify that it "looks" dilated by a factor f *to an Earth
observer*.
And you are forgetting that the time on Earth *at the time when the
light was emitted* *looks* dilated by the same factor f *to a supernova
observer*. This is a mere consequence of the Cosmological Principle,
according to which all positions in the universe are essentially
equivalent.

Mathematically, for an Earth observer, to a time interval t(earth)
corresponds a time interval
(1) t(supernova) = t(earth) * f, and symmetrically, for a galactic observer,
t(earth) = t(supernova) * f,
where f is the same time dilation factor. By replacing this
value of t(earth) in relation (1), one gets
t(supernova) = t(supernova) * f^2, which is only possible if f = 1.
Thus relation (1) reduces to t(supernova) = t(earth), meaning
that, contrary to the claim made by contemporary cosmologists, no
"time dilation factor works on supernovae to lessen the delay in
the rest frame".

Hm, that sounds like the "Famous Devastating Marcel Luttgens
Special Relativity Refutation", going like this:
| t' = gamma * t for a clock at rest in the unprimed frame
| and
| t = gamma * t' for a clock at rest in the primed frame
| and therefore
| t' = gamma^2 * t'
| which is only possible if
| gamma = 1
Sounds familiar, Marcel?

Contemporary cosmologists, who base their claim on general
relativity, are simply wrong.

Of course, since the Refuted Luttgens Version of Special Relativity
is a special case of the Luttgens Version of General Relativity, the
latter is automatically refuted as well, right, Marcel?

Well done, Marcel - brilliant come-back, Marcel!

And you see, I can copy-paste as well, remember, Marcel?
However, I changed one little detail - can you find it, Marcel?

Dirk Vdm