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BBCi/space forum is moderated by NASA or by their external NASA Borgs
**** off, troll
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BBCi/space forum is moderated by NASA or by their external NASA Borgs
(MSu1049321) wrote in message ...
**** off, troll Of course since you're so freaking "all knowing", how about running off some numbers that'll correct some or any of my most recent village idiot additions to the "Space-Radiation" issues, especially of what Earth L4 or L5 has to offer. Here's my latest input and, as far as this vuillage can figure, it's become somewhat worse off than I thought, at least the Van Allen zone as representing any significant radiation buffer simply isn't what the pro-Apollo cults have to say, even though it's a fairly nasty place to spend any amount of time in a craft as ****-poorly shielded as what the Apollo missions had to work with. http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm There's been another metric tonne worth of new information I've learned about the radiation environment at Earth L4/L5, not to mention the greater risk imposed from secondary (X-Ray) dosage that's attributed to solar minimum cosmic radiation interacting with the likes of any shield and/or the lunar surface. This is where the opposition (that's you) offers intentional disinformation, as being tossed out like warm and fuzzy flak at my position, where actually that's what's giving me insight and further motivation into learning what's more likely the case than not, like what our atmosphere and of the void or space in between Earth's atmosphere and 590 km has to offer, like 274,000:1 in reducing radiation exposure as opposed to the Van Allen zone attributing another mere 200:1 influx buffer. Regards, Brad Guth "GUTH Venus" |
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BBCi/space forum is moderated by NASA or by their external NASA Borgs
Jonathan Silverlight wrote in message ...
In message , Jay Windley writes "Brad Guth" wrote in message . com... | though the substance of the moon itself is what | subsequently creates secondaries, which are mostly | of X-Ray class radiation. That is incorrect. The secondary radiation emitted by the lunar surface itself under normal conditions is almost immeasurably small, and it is not generally x-rays. Minor nitpick, but I wouldn't describe the secondary radiation as "immeasurably small". It's fairly easily detected by orbiting spacecraft, and it's been used for remote sensing to measure the composition of the Moon. Thanks so much for your feedback, as I'll apply such logic in future corrections that lunar mass offers a highly preferable shield to that of aluminum and, I'll even give your name (Jonathan Silverlight) as credit for such. I've recently imposed another tit for tat that's most likely as equally in error for regarding Earth L4/L5, in order to further extrapolate what's at Venus L2 (VL2). L4/L5 Space Radiation 6^4 Sv/y, 6^3 Sv/y solar minimum, Venus L2? Some might consider Earth L4 and/or L5 as environments similar to our moon during full sunlight, though there's a good deal of mass (3.41 g/cc) associated with the moon that's actually of greater density than aluminum, so much so that the most recent radiation dosage charts dealing with the amounts of secondary radiation created mostly by the solar minimum environment that's subjecting such mass to less external radiation influx than solar maximum, that such interaction had ott to create somewhat more (not less) X-Ray emissions than of aluminum. The raw non-shielded 6^3 Sv/y is an extrapolation that I based upon the charts (con_x_dose1.pdf) provided by NASA, while another reference of somewhat greater radiation density comes from a TRW Space Data report. The L4/L5 environment is without Earth shade, without magnetosphere deflection benefit and it's obviously a 24/7 timeline that's receiving all there is from our sun as well as from whatever other galactic sources there are. What I'd like to learn about is how best to extrapolate and/or estimate the Venus L2 environment. Venus L2 (VL2) had ott to be at least somewhat shielded as similar to Earth L2, possibly not all that much greater dosage since there's greater coverage or shade provided by the planet itself and of it's extensive atmosphere, though I'd hardly expect it to be of any linear probability, such as the 1.9:1 ratio of solar influx above that of Earth. Earth L2 is roughly 6^3 Sv/y (solar maximum), 6^2 Sv/y solar minimum. As you add shielding you obviously reduce upon the primary influx, however you soon start increasing upon those secondaries which are mostly of X-Ray class. Your best defence (besides getting yourself back on Earth) against secondary radiation is volumes of low density matter, the less density the better off you'll be with the exception that such volume may soon become unmanageable unless you're utilizing the natural space environment itself, such as by way of hiding yourself sufficiently behind a very big rock, or better yet will be that of any ice ball that you can at least somewhat control it's trajectory into going where you want it to go, or to stay, as in the case of being long-term stationed at any L2 position. Until I've learned otherwise, I'm considering the possibility that VL2 is worth 9^3 Sv/y (solar maximum), 9^2 Sv/y solar minimum. One of the reports that I'll be updating and/or entirely replacing is this page; http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm If you'd like credit for anything you care to offer, I'll certainly post such credits and even insure that you receive whatever financial benefits to go along with it. This is a win-win situation for honest science plus all of humanity, it's morally correct and it's about getting and sharing truths. Regards, Brad Guth / IEIS discovery of LIFE on Venus http://guthvenus.tripod.com |
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BBCi/space forum is moderated by NASA or by their external NASA Borgs
Thanks ever so much to Jonathan Silverlight, for your terrific
feedback, as I'll certainly apply such logic in future corrections, that's of your essentially correcting the likes of Wizard Jay Windley, as pertaining to lunar mass offering "almost immeasurably small" secondary radiation, thus obviously such would be providing a highly preferable shield element to that of aluminum and, I'll even offer his name (Jay Windley) as bonafide credit for such insight, unless that's cutting too much of yourself out of the action. Unfortunately, I've recently imposed another tit for tat that's most likely as equally in error for regarding Earth L4/L5, in order to further extrapolate what's at Venus L2 (VL2), so even though VL2 may have a roasty/toasty 6^2 Sv/y (solar minimum) worth of primary radiation to start off with, hells bells, it sounds like if we stop by the moon for a little of that soil we ott to be able to long-term tolerate that VL2 environment with hardly 0.1 meter of lunar soil, after all that's 34.1 g/cm2, or more than 6 times as much as the overall Apollo mission average and, even though I believe an upper limit of 274 mrem/day is tolerable for a two year stint, especially if you've got banked bone marrow as backup. The fact that this amount of density may not cut it is somehow, by Lord Windley standards, immaterial as long as we utilize cloned hybrid astronauts such as those Apollo types. Come to think of it; If in fact the likes of statements by Jay Windley are the least bit correct in stipulating that such lunar mass (3.41 g/cc) offers such immeasurable secondary radiation, then what the hell have we been waiting for? Lets get ourselves back onto the moon the very next time we ever decide to go anywhere, sort of making it a lunar pit-stop, then simply filling up the cavity or voids between the inner and outer hull with clumping lunar soil, whereas even though the lunar soil is considerably more dense than aluminum and in spite of what the laws of physics have to say, at least according to our Wizard Windley, there's hardly any measurable secondary radiation to be had. This remarkable discovery alone had ott to be worth hundreds of billions and, it'll only cause us to recall and republish millions of textbooks and research references pertaining to radiation and subsequent interactions with various densities of mass, thereby greatly discrediting the merits of hydrogen as being of least X-Ray generating by way of merely replacing that element with clumping-moon-dust as becoming the ultimate solution for all future missions, including benefitting ISS that's tried just about everything in the book, spending hundreds of millions if not billions at suppressing their secondary radiation, without all that much luck I might say. Talk about the ultimate gold mine of motherload discoveries; whereas this absolutely bone dry yet clumping-moon-dust has got to be it, the holy grail of nonreactive matter that's capable of not only shielding our butts, whereas best of all is being that we don't even have to create nor launch an once of it from Earth. In fact, having such a cash of this nifty stuff situated on the moon is almost too good to be true, as the lunar gravity is but 1/6th that of Earth and, situating our spacecraft or some robotic lunar soil retriever down onto the lunar surface ott to be a sure thing (only 10 mrem/day getting ourselves there is another bonus, being that we now know, according to Wizard Windley, how to avoid most of the Van Allen zone of death and, since we've acquired better speed as well as improved radiation shielding to start off with, plus the fact that we'll not require any external EVAs, just a portable screw pump tossed onto the surface and a filling hose) and, getting all that additional mass back off the lunar surface should also be another snap, after all, we've come a long ways in fly-by-wire rocketry, as well as in overall thrust capability as well as reliability. Just looking at the CHALLENGER, COLUMBIA, even the V-22 Osprey and any number of easier to accomplish successful aerodynamic adventures and you can't hardly imagine anything going wrong and, certainly not by the trusty words of our very own wizard Jay Windley. If I've gotten something wrong, please do help me out, feel free to letting me know what's what, as I for one am in total awe of what the likes of these pro-Apollo wizards have to say, as subsequently nearly all of our future space travel concerns have been answered in spades. OK,,, so I'm not entirely convinced, but then I'm still the village idiot that's seeing all sorts of strange things on the surface of Venus that supposedly aren't there. Regards, Brad Guth / IEIS discovery of LIFE on Venus http://guthvenus.tripod.com |
#5
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BBCi/space forum is moderated by NASA or by their external NASA Borgs
"Brad Guth" wrote in message om... | | Thanks ever so much to Jonathan Silverlight, for your | terrific feedback, as I'll certainly apply such logic | in future corrections, that's of your essentially correcting | the likes of Wizard Jay Windley, as pertaining to lunar mass | offering "almost immeasurably small" secondary radiation Translation: I only pay attention to stuff that I already agree with. As Jonathan noted, and as I agreed, his "correction" was a mere nitpick. Secondary radiation from the moon is, of course, detectable for imaging and remote sensing purpose. But it has almost no effect on the human physiology. A good analogy might be starlight. It's certainly detectable both by the naked eye and with our instruments. But you don't put on sunblock to go out and bask in a starlit night. Nor would your dermatologist be able to detect any "radiation damage" from starlight. | I'll even offer his name (Jay Windley) as bonafide credit for | such insight, unless that's cutting too much of yourself out | of the action. Keep my name out of *anything* you write. You've been putting words in my mouth for days now. I wouldn't trust you to represent my statements correctly even if you were asked at gunpoint to do it. | ... at least according to our Wizard Windley, there's | hardly any measurable secondary radiation to be had. I never suggested using lunar material as some sort of radiation shielding because of its supposed lack of secondary emissions. In fact, I quite clearly stated that the lack of any significant secondary effect was due to the relative lack of a *primary* effect. The nature of the substance is largely irrelevant in that case. You take TRW's figures for a very specific part of the cislunar environment and try to apply it everywhere. That gives you horribly inflated ideas of ambient radiation, and therefore horribly wrong guesses about secondary effects. I went on further to say that during a solar particle event there would indeed be a great deal of secondary radiation emitted from the lunar surface material, but it wouldn't be much of a concern because you'd be more worried about the *primary* radiation which would have a much more deleterious effect. | Talk about the ultimate gold mine of motherload discoveries; | whereas this absolutely bone dry yet clumping-moon-dust has | got to be it, the holy grail of nonreactive matter ... I made no such claim. I clearly stated why the secondary emissions from the lunar surface were not biologically significant. It has nothing to do with the supposed miraculous properties of the material itself. It has, as usual, to do entirely with your lack of understanding of the lunar environment and how much primary radiation we're working with. | ...according to Wizard Windley Make up your mind. Am I a "Borg" or a "Wizard"? And do you have any arguments that *don't* involve name-calling? | If I've gotten something wrong, please do help me out Well, to start with you've gotten almost all my statements wrong. Start by listening to what I say and not merely pretending I said something that supports your opinion. -- | The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org |
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BBCi/space forum is moderated by NASA or by their external NASA Borgs
In message , Jay Windley
writes "Brad Guth" wrote in message . com... | | Thanks ever so much to Jonathan Silverlight, for your | terrific feedback, as I'll certainly apply such logic | in future corrections, that's of your essentially correcting | the likes of Wizard Jay Windley, as pertaining to lunar mass | offering "almost immeasurably small" secondary radiation Translation: I only pay attention to stuff that I already agree with. As Jonathan noted, and as I agreed, his "correction" was a mere nitpick. Secondary radiation from the moon is, of course, detectable for imaging and remote sensing purpose. But it has almost no effect on the human physiology. A good analogy might be starlight. It's certainly detectable both by the naked eye and with our instruments. But you don't put on sunblock to go out and bask in a starlit night. Nor would your dermatologist be able to detect any "radiation damage" from starlight. | I'll even offer his name (Jay Windley) as bonafide credit for | such insight, unless that's cutting too much of yourself out | of the action. Keep my name out of *anything* you write. You've been putting words in my mouth for days now. I wouldn't trust you to represent my statements correctly even if you were asked at gunpoint to do it. And keep my name out too :-) I wasn't supporting you, Brad, in any way. But I like Jay Windley's starlight analogy and only wish I'd thought of using it. -- "Roads in space for rockets to travel....four-dimensional roads, curving with relativity" Mail to jsilverlight AT merseia.fsnet.co.uk is welcome. Or visit Jonathan's Space Site http://www.merseia.fsnet.co.uk |
#7
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BBCi/space forum is moderated by NASA or by their external NASA Borgs
"Jonathan Silverlight" wrote in message ... | | And keep my name out too :-) I wasn't supporting you, Brad, in any way. | But I like Jay Windley's starlight analogy and only wish I'd thought of | using it. Not half as much as I wish I'd said it that way in the first place. I keep forgetting that there are astronomers out there for whom "detectable" and "measurable" describe noticing practically individual photons. I'm thinking in the engineer's mode, which is about dosimeters and plutonium, both of which have figured into my job in the past year. Barring a solar event, a couple of hours on the lunar surface wearing my dosimeter will rack up a measurable amount of *primary* radiation, but next to nothing from x-rays emitted as secondary radiation from the dirt. Alas, it is too late. Brad has liberally sprinkled his web page with his typically cutesy references to my name, attaching it to things I never said and to ideas I don't espouse. The bottom line is that for things like aluminum spacecraft skins and naturally occurring rocks, the only time you'll need to pay attention to secondary radiation is when the primary radiation is strong enough that you had darn well better pay attention to *it* instead. -- | The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org |
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