Buying a new telescope...suggestions welcome

or does it look like some crappy addition to it.


A Telrad is the mark of a "real" stargazer. ;-)

-Florian

Hello Zarkovic, Welcome to the group.
I'd like to chime in here a bit, and others have given you some great
sound advice.

In my opinion, the smaller scopes you had first selected are a poor
choice, and a waste of good money. They sure sound good on paper, but
many, if not most have wobbly, and cheaply made flimsy mounts, a very
small aperture which IMO is discouraging on most objects, very cheap
focusers that aren't worth a dam, and also inadequate el cheapo
secondary mirror support spiders, and horrible Primary Mirror
Cells/Supports which usually have difficulty maintaining proper
collimation of the mirrors.

GOTO systems you may find will be actually a hindrance to you, and will
perhaps intimidate, and discourage you when trying to find things, and
find you're striking out.

As it's been said, an 8" scope is an 8" scope.
many finely made reflector telescopes. those using lets perhaps say a
world class 8" Zambuto Mirror, with fine, smooth figure have the
alibilty to closely approach views, light grasp, resolution, and image
scale of a fine 8" refractor on both planetary, and deep sky objects,.
An 8" Apo Refractor now days generally cost about $20-22K.

An 8" Dobsonian Reflector has advantages that it will be relatively
maintainence free, easy to set up, and easy to use.

Plus, the end result will be, when you view many common objects, an 8"
Reflector will show you these objects which will have you gasping in
delight. The 4"-5" entry level scopes generally will have you saying to
yourself "Is that all"? :-(

As your bud Starlord mentions, a few good star charts, or/and a
Planisphere will be good aids to finding objects, and all the visible
Constellations in your part of the northern sky, and there's another
great resource which no one has yet mentioned which you can tap into,
and that is your public library for books.

I've been into the hobby since 1968, and I'll be honest with you,
sometimes when I get under superbly dark skies, I even get confused
finding my way around at times. With the myriad of stars, it can
sometimes complicate easily seeing the outlines of certain
constellations.

Charts, and a Planisphere are good aids for all, and who knows, you
might just pick up some new observing friends along the way!? I'm sure
theres others in your area who have interest in the hobby, and you may
have a local Astronomy Club in your area? Best wishes, Mark

Zarkovic wrote:
Just one q about telrad finder. Is there a slot to mount it on the XT8
perfectly, or do I have to sort of strap it in? Is it durable and good fit
on the tube, or does it look like some crappy addition to it. Thank you.

The double-stick tape included with the Telrad mount works great and
looks much better than straps. I had one strapped to a big new
telescope for a while, and settled on the tape.

Jane and I have fun looking for Telrads on large professional
telescopes. They're always there. I think the 100-inch Hooker on Mt.
Wilson has several of them.

Look for the Telrad in the picture of the 24-inch Clark refractor at
Lowell Observatory he
http://www.otastro.org/2005-06-GrandCanyon/pg08.html

Here's another one on the 60-inch at Mt. Wilson:
http://www.otastro.org/mt-wilson/

And you'll find several Telrads here, including one on the 6-inch
Schwarr dobsonian: http://www.otastro.org/2005-04-monrovia/

Mojo
--
Morris Jones
Monrovia, CA
http://www.whiteoaks.com
Old Town Astronomers: http://www.otastro.org

Some comments from my personal journey....

Using a 4" aperture GoTo scope and The Sky Level 1, within 3 months I
mastered what I'd call, "Computerized Astronomy 101: What's up there, and
how do I setup my GoTo so I can see it?".

While that was an important education, it would not have been money well
spent for someone without a decent amount of discretionary income. I'm not
going to tell you how much I spent on that first scope with all the
accessories I thought I needed, but suffice to say it was too much for too
little.

I kept that little 4" GoTo for years, and at one time I even mounted a 5"
SCT on the mount as a side project to improve its usefulness. But I had
moved up to a non-GoTo 8" SCT just 4 months after purchasing the 4", leaving
the little GT scope used only on the rarest of occasions over the next three
years or so before I finally sold it.

Having only "Computerized Astronomy 101" knowledge at the time, I found the
8" scope frustrating to use as I was accustomed to doing a computer
alignment, punching in a number designation, and having the scope go to the
object. I had not developed the patience, nor the skill to find stuff on my
own. So, I added digital setting circles (like what the Intelliscope has). I
found that I liked this a lot better than the GoTo system, since there were
no noisy motor drives, and I didn't feel as if I was disturbing my neighbor
late at night (at the time, the neighbor's bedroom window was within 30 feet
of my side yard observing spot). Besides that, the noise of the GoTo motors
bothered me too.

This particular 8" SCT was a heavy duty fork mount on a wedge designed for
imaging and had a clock drive. So, with the DSCs, it had very similar
capabilities to a GoTo. That is, computerized finding and motorized
tracking.

Over time, I became familiar enough with the more common deep space objects
and found that I simply wasn't bothering to turn on the DSCs except when
having trouble locating an object for whatever reason. Sometimes it would be
a new object and I had no idea what to expect in terms of its visibility.
Other times I just couldn't seem to get on target with a familiar object.

Through the process of using the DSCs (which required that you manually aim
the scope until the readout is zero), I learned to be more patient about
getting on target, as well as learning where many of the more spectacular
objects could be found without any aid whatsoever.

It the wasn't long before I moved up in aperture from the 8" SCT, and
decided on a 10" Dobsonian, and then a year or so later, a 12.5" Dobsonian.
With the larger scopes on hand, I found that I also wanted something small
to take out for 15 minutes to an hour from time to time, just to poke
around. I tried binoculars for a while, but finally settled on a decent 80mm
short refractor on altazimuth mount.

During the experience with the 8" SCT, which I owned for a few years, I got
interested in imaging. I purchased a used Starlight Xpress MX5-C with USB
and STAR2000 (the MX's autoguiding accessory). After a while, I lost
interest with imaging because it demanded more effort than I was willing to
put into it, so I sold the entire setup.

After nearly 5 years in the hobby, I now find myself hunting obscure objects
only on rare occassions, and instead simply aiming the 12.5" scope manually
with a Telrad and a 9x50 finder at several of the many "wow" objects I now
know how to find without need for charts or computerized finding systems.
There are enough of these objects up there, to keep you busy for a couple of
hours on any given night. I can also now usually find an object using a
chart and Telrad in pretty short order, given reasonable sky darkness and
transparency. If I am going after a new object, I concentrate on finding
just that one object during the session, and if successful, I then go back
and forth between it, and the other objects I already know how to find. This
hardens my knowledge of where the new object is, and makes it easier to
locate without aid the next time out.

Recently, I decided to get back into imaging. Taking what I had learned from
my last experience with that pursuit, I decided to spend the money on a
Losmandy G-11 mount, and go the DSLR route with an inexpensive 200mm
aperture F4 (800mm focal length) reflector. This is a non-GoTo, non-DSC
setup, with a piggy backed refractor as a super finder/drift alignment
scope. The refractor and the reflector are aligned so that whatever is in
the refractor eyepiece, shows up on the CMOS sensor of the DSLR.

Both the imaging setup, and the 12.5" Dobsonian are on wheels so that I can
roll them from the garage out to the backyard. The piggy backed refractor,
is also my grab and go scope. The 200mm F4 reflector only ever sees an
eyepiece during the process of aligning the finder scope. The rest of the
time, it is setup for camera use only.

With both of these setups, I have plenty to keep me busy without the need
for a computerized finding system, although I do have a couple of ideas for
my future. One is to get an 8" GoTo SCT to use with a binoviewer at star
parties under truly dark skies. The other is to add DSCs to my Losmandy, so
that I spend less time getting on target when imaging. Not that the latter
is super necessary, but I've found that the easier it is to image, the more
likely you will get out and do it.

Best wishes, and I hope this message is helpful to anyone considering this
hobby whether they be new, are coming back, or have stagnated. All it takes
is two, three, or maybe four thousand dollars of discretionary income over
four or five years, and the experience you develop in that time, along with
patience and self control over obsessive-compulsive behavior, in order to
truly enjoy the many facets of amateur astronomy.

Now that's not asking too much is it? :-)

-Stephen Paul

"Zarkovic" wrote in message
news:JlcAe.218737$El.110000@pd7tw1no...
Damn Larry, just when I was sure to go the "go-to", in comes your
argument.
Anyhow, you are right and that's why I would want to get XT8 from orion
for $499 USD, without the go to function vs. XT6 with a go to function for
$459 USD. Here is my dilemma: It definetly makes sense that bigger
aperture to at least be able to see some detail, and even though there are
hunderds of millions of stars in our own galaxy, but I don't think I would
be able to find any planetary nebulae, solar planets (except the ones
visible by eye) and so forth. But then again, I do own Starry Night Pro
4.5 version, so mabye that would help me somehow. I just basically don't
know where to look to see the 'good stuff', yet I am ambitious and wanna
do as much and see as much with my scope. But then again, I am sure I
wouldn't be using the go-to function all the time. So the trade off would
be at getting a big aperture scope vs. the go to function in my first
scope when I immidiatelly purchase it. So yea, now I am changing my mind
constantly, but I am in no hurry, as long as I get it within next 3 or 4
months. By the way, what season is the best to views the sky on, I heard
winter but I guess every clear night is a good time to do it? Thank you
all again.

"Larry Stedman" wrote in message
...
Welcome to s.a.a.!

For years, the standard advice has been a 6" or 8" dob... and it still
makes lots of sense. There are lots of choices. Many companies make or
import dobs: Discovery, Orion, Hardin (what's left of their inventory),
Celestron, etc.. You can always add computerized object locaters later
on. You can find used telescopes at a reasonable prices on Astromart.

The Intelliscope series from Orion would give you an option for a later
easy, modestly priced, digital setting circle add-on. It would make
your scope "push-to". (Although some have reported that the DSC unit
doesn't work that well in colder climes.) Other dobs also can take
object locaters (what are called DSCs--digital setting circles), which
are pricier, but will you give a richer set of features. Go-to
telescopes tend to be pricey and don't get you as much aperture size for
your money. While many find go-tos useful and recommend them for
novices, many believe as I do that you're better off skipping them. Few
people get into this hobby knowing where things are. You learn as you
go. Then later you can add push-to DSCs and you'll value them more!

Investing in aperture (rather than go-to), a Telrad (projects rede
circles against the sky so you can easily position the scope), and some
Telrad finder charts (showing you where to find objects given the Telrad
circles) will set you up well. With books such as Turn Left at Orion or
Nigh****ch, you'll also have another guided way of finding things.

You should talk more with Starlord, as having an experienced,
knowledgeable contact will help you. If there is a club near you, you
can go to a public night and see lots of scopes in action. First-hand
experience is invaluable in deciding what's best for you.

There are lots of beginner's buying guides on the net... just Google
for FAQs, beginner telescope recommendations, etc. Check out Orion's
catalog and web site for information about scopes generally (they'll
send you a copy free)... Sky & Telescope also has good introductory
material. There are small scope and beginner's forums on such astro
boards as Cloudy Nights (check out Astromart forums, too).

In hard copy, books such as The Backyard Astronomer's Guide (& StarWare
& others ) will cover the astro gamut well and teach you a lot about
type of scopes and picking a good starter one.

Don't get hung up on picking an ideal first scope. Many people in this
hobby go through several scopes before finding the one or two (or 3 or
4) that they really like and hang on to. It takes experience with a
scope to really figure out its pros and cons and what suits you best.
You probably will have to own for a while to discover that. Still, as
a first scope, you generally can't go wrong making it a 6" or 8"
Dobsonian.

Good luck and feel free to ask us more questions. And let us know down
the road what you get and how you like it!

Larry Stedman
Vestal

Florian wrote:


A Telrad is the mark of a "real" stargazer. ;-)


nah... the mark of the REAL stargazer is being able to find stuff with a
good book and a set of telrad circles printed on clear plastic film at the
right scale for the charts in aforementioned book faster than that other
guy with the $4000 goto equipment.

been there, done that, found that M13 in a 15" dob looks... great.

bye,
[L]

Hello again people.
So I have decided to get XT8 with no go to function (yet), thanks a lot to
many of you for your help, it greatly affected my decision. Again, thank you
Starlord for your very useful guides, Doink you too and others as well.
Someone mentioned astromart.com and I was there, nothing that I was looking
for, but I went on ebay and found this: View item description:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...DME:L:RTQ:CA:1
and another one like it. Anyhow it seems to be a good deal, but I am just
wondering whether anyone actually got something as sensetive and expenive as
a telescope from ebay and so forth. Should I insist on some sort of a return
policy or just stick with the brand new one? Thank you

nah... the mark of the REAL stargazer is being able to find stuff with =
a
good book and a set of telrad circles printed on clear plastic film at =
the
right scale for the charts in aforementioned book faster than that =
other
guy with the $4000 goto equipment.


Printed clear plastic Telrad circles are training wheels for newbie =
Telrad users. ;-)

-Florian

Well I looked at it, up front it looks to be a good scope, but I have to
wonder about something, when someone starts listing viewing power up over
1000X, I tend to back off, I'd dare say the number of nights that kind of
power could be used ( if it even gives a good image ) could be counted on
two fingers. Also note " (Reserve not met) ", you have no real idea of what
he wants for it. I think I'd back off from that one.

Plus a brand new one you are covered in case the mirror is not figured right
or anything else happens to it during shipping.


--

The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Astronomy-Net Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net


"Zarkovic" wrote in message
news:Q3JAe.1939446$Xk.525033@pd7tw3no...
Hello again people.
So I have decided to get XT8 with no go to function (yet), thanks a lot to
many of you for your help, it greatly affected my decision. Again, thank
you Starlord for your very useful guides, Doink you too and others as
well. Someone mentioned astromart.com and I was there, nothing that I was
looking for, but I went on ebay and found this: View item description:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...DME:L:RTQ:CA:1
and another one like it. Anyhow it seems to be a good deal, but I am just
wondering whether anyone actually got something as sensetive and expenive
as a telescope from ebay and so forth. Should I insist on some sort of a
return policy or just stick with the brand new one? Thank you

Exactly my thoughts, and I was really worried about the mirror alligment.
Anyhow, I am currently e-mailing back and forward the orion staff (btw they
are very nice and friendly) so I guess it's just a matter of time now. Some
dude has one xt8 on astromart, but doesn't want to ship to Canada. Anyhow, I
didn't really do the shopping around for the new xt8, but I pressume orion
would have the lowest prices, since it is their scope. Anyhow, I'll do that
later on. Thank you for the very nice sharing of interesting details and
experiances, this is a very, very useful newsgroup. I love it.

My first true scope was an Orion 12.5 f4.8 DSE Dob, ( made by who is now
Discorvery Telescopes ) and they shipped it to Hawaii where I lived at the
time ( I miss that scope ) and even replaced the mirror when it was found to
have a zone area in it.

I just hope their sevice stays as good with the new owner of Orion.


--

The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Astronomy-Net Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net


"Zarkovic" wrote in message
newsCRAe.1942821$Xk.90308@pd7tw3no...
Exactly my thoughts, and I was really worried about the mirror alligment.
Anyhow, I am currently e-mailing back and forward the orion staff (btw
they are very nice and friendly) so I guess it's just a matter of time
now. Some dude has one xt8 on astromart, but doesn't want to ship to
Canada. Anyhow, I didn't really do the shopping around for the new xt8,
but I pressume orion would have the lowest prices, since it is their
scope. Anyhow, I'll do that later on. Thank you for the very nice sharing
of interesting details and experiances, this is a very, very useful
newsgroup. I love it.