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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?



 
 
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  #61  
Old September 15th 18, 12:39 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Posts: 331
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Chris L Peterson wrote in
:

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:27:38 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Kujisalimisha wrote:

Chris L Peterson wrote in
m:

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:37:19 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

No. I simply recognize reality. Faith-based thinking has
never produced a truth.

"Faith-based thinking" is a slippery phrase. What does it
even mean?

No, it's rigorously defined.


The difficulty, of course, is that it's defined in multiple,
mutually exclusive ways by different people.


Not really.

Only in your diseased hallucination.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

  #62  
Old September 15th 18, 12:03 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

A lot of garbled stuff from people who just don't have a feeling for spirituality and astronomy.

The ancient societies celebrated this time of the year as the Zodiacal lights would appear thereby captivating the local community where I grew up even though they were then called 'strange lights' back then.

The dull and dreary racket readers see here is nothing like the human heritage where people, the landscape and astronomy mesh -

https://www.archaeology.ie/news/arch...-bru-na-boinne








  #63  
Old September 15th 18, 01:30 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 2:20:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:

Sure, science would continue, but some scientists would be left in
the dust because they couldn't adapt. Saint Albert and QM is a case
in point. I would hope that I'm flexible enough to embrace new
evidence, whatever it is.


Assuming by St. Albert you mean Albert Einstein. Who of course is
dead. If Einstein were somehow still alive I am sure he would not be
fundamentally unable to continue inquire should he learn some of his
theories were incomplete.


I'm sure he's learned a lot since he has died.

I don't know what your point is. The Abrahamic religions DO continue
"even though" they believe those things you list.


You missed my point.


Apparently.

Accepting that a diety guided the 13 Jewish tribes


13? I thought there were 12 sons.

to a promised land because they are a chosen people, that Jesus is
divine, and that Mohamed received the Qu'ran from the lips of a diety
are fundamental components of those faiths. If one were to accept
proof disputing the tenants, that person would no longer be considered
among the faithful. This holds even among the more liberal denominations..


And it holds in science, too. Consider Halton Arp, Roy Spencer and others
were/are not considered among the "faithful."

“Life cannot have had a random beginning … The trouble is that there
are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all
in a random trial is only one part in 10^40,000, an outrageously small
probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted
of organic soup.” – Fred Hoyle


There has a been many additions to biochemistry since the 1980s when
Hoyle wrote what that quote.

So there must be some undiscovered shortcuts or life began elsewhere
long, long, long ago. Maybe even before the Big Bang?


Not likely.


"Likely" or "not likely" are human-cognitive but not necessarily related
to the universe.

https://physicsworld.com/a/new-evide...nd-colleagues/
  #64  
Old September 15th 18, 02:11 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:13:33 PM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:37:19 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

No. I simply recognize reality. Faith-based thinking has never
produced a truth.


"Faith-based thinking" is a slippery phrase. What does it even mean?


No, it's rigorously defined. It means accepting as true that which is
not supported by evidence. In many cases (for instance most religion)
it means accepting as true that which is contradicted by evidence.


Ignoring evidence is practiced in both religion AND science. As
P. Pilate said, "What is truth?"

Faith-based thinking is the opposite of evidence-based thinking.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see a lot of faith-based thinking
in science, particularly in AGW.

And you yourself have expressed "faith-based thinking." You believe
(without evidence) that all alien civilizations destroy themselves
before they can become god-like. Remember? :-)

"truth" is also a bit slippery. Science doesn't deal in truths. We
used to think it did, but today we understand that science deals with
models that predict observables.


Pragmatically, science very much does deal in truths,


That is VERY old-school.

where we define that as things which accurately describe how nature
works.


We don't know how nature REALLY works. We build models that allow us to
predict outcomes, but models are maps of nature, not nature herself.

"Models are of central importance in many scientific contexts. The
centrality of models such as the billiard ball model of a gas, the Bohr
model of the atom, the MIT bag model of the nucleon, ... are cases in
point."

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/models-science/

It is to me. I accept scientific models until refuted by experimental
observations. I also hold beliefs that are not refuted by such
observations. You hold a belief that there is no God, which would be
destroyed the moment God showed Himself.


Which is why I don't claim there are no gods. But I consider it true
beyond reasonable doubt that there are none. It's the same standard I
apply to unicorns and leprechauns.


Many, many people have had experiences with God, but very, very few with
unicorns and leprechauns.

Sure it is. "Reality" is unknowable to our senses. We construct models
(maps) of reality, but the map is not the territory.


It is entirely reasonable to see the model and reality as being one
and the same.


Not "reasonable" at all. It is a human trait to believe that one has
found "The Secrets of the Universe" in one's own experiences, but wisdom
is more circumspect.

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the
easiest person to fool.” -- Richard P. Feynman
  #65  
Old September 15th 18, 04:15 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

No, it's rigorously defined. It means accepting as true that which is
not supported by evidence. In many cases (for instance most religion)
it means accepting as true that which is contradicted by evidence.


Ignoring evidence is practiced in both religion AND science. As
P. Pilate said, "What is truth?"


No, it is NEVER ignored by science. Sure, by individual scientists,
who are fallible and never operate with perfect reason. But by science
itself? Never. Which is why science never fails to lead us closer to
truth (and in so doing, isolates more and more religious dogma as
objectively false).

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see a lot of faith-based thinking
in science, particularly in AGW.


Of course you do. Because you don't understand science, and because
you can't overcome your dogma when science demonstrates things that
you have philosophical problems with.

And you yourself have expressed "faith-based thinking." You believe
(without evidence) that all alien civilizations destroy themselves
before they can become god-like. Remember? :-)


I don't "believe" this. I offer it as a plausible hypothesis to answer
the Fermi paradox, based on observation of human behavior. That's all.

Many, many people have had experiences with God, but very, very few with
unicorns and leprechauns.


Nobody, of course, has had an experience with God. While it is
possible some god might exist, God (the Abrahamic monster) does not,
beyond all reasonable doubt. Of course, we now understand a lot about
the brain states and dysfunctions that lead to such experiences, and
our degree of understanding in that area is growing rapidly.
  #66  
Old September 15th 18, 05:53 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 9:15:34 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

No, it's rigorously defined. It means accepting as true that which is
not supported by evidence. In many cases (for instance most religion)
it means accepting as true that which is contradicted by evidence.


Ignoring evidence is practiced in both religion AND science. As
P. Pilate said, "What is truth?"


No, it is NEVER ignored by science.


NEVER? You are sounding like an absolutist. :-)

Sure, by individual scientists, who are fallible and never operate with
perfect reason.


Sometimes by the whole scientific community. But you are right because
it tends to be self-correcting.

But by science itself? Never. Which is why science never fails to lead
us closer to truth (and in so doing, isolates more and more religious
dogma as objectively false).


And that's a good thing since "dogma" is a creation of man, not of God.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see a lot of faith-based
thinking in science, particularly in AGW.


Of course you do. Because you don't understand science, and because
you can't overcome your dogma when science demonstrates things that
you have philosophical problems with.


You completely misrepresent me with that straw-man allegation. Since
you believe science seeks "truth" it is YOU that embraces "dogma" and
YOU that misunderstands science.

And you yourself have expressed "faith-based thinking." You believe
(without evidence) that all alien civilizations destroy themselves
before they can become god-like. Remember? :-)


I don't "believe" this. I offer it as a plausible hypothesis to answer
the Fermi paradox, based on observation of human behavior. That's all.


And why would "human behavior apply to aliens? And "plausible" can only
have one meaning in a universe composed of billions of galaxies that have
existed three times longer than our solar system, each with billions of
stars and billions of planets: If something CAN happen, it has already
happened.

Many, many people have had experiences with God, but very, very few with
unicorns and leprechauns.


Nobody, of course, has had an experience with God.


This is YOUR dogma. Many, many people have had such experiences. They
are quite common. My grandmother did, my aunt did, as well as other
members of my family. You, of course, would label such things as
hallucinations or tricks of the mind, but doing so just exposes your
own dogma.

While it is possible some god might exist, God (the Abrahamic monster)
does not, beyond all reasonable doubt.


My, but you are SO vociferous in your dogma :-)

Of course, we now understand a lot about the brain states and dysfunctions
that lead to such experiences, and our degree of understanding in that
area is growing rapidly.


See?
  #67  
Old September 15th 18, 07:06 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Ninapenda Jibini
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Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

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--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
  #68  
Old September 15th 18, 08:08 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

People who can be inspired by nature at a local level will be inspired at our celestial neighbourhood and all the events we participate in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auSo1MyWf8g
  #69  
Old September 16th 18, 02:38 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:53:03 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 9:15:34 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

No, it's rigorously defined. It means accepting as true that which is
not supported by evidence. In many cases (for instance most religion)
it means accepting as true that which is contradicted by evidence.

Ignoring evidence is practiced in both religion AND science. As
P. Pilate said, "What is truth?"


No, it is NEVER ignored by science.


NEVER? You are sounding like an absolutist. :-)

Sure, by individual scientists, who are fallible and never operate with
perfect reason.


Sometimes by the whole scientific community. But you are right because
it tends to be self-correcting.


Never.

But by science itself? Never. Which is why science never fails to lead
us closer to truth (and in so doing, isolates more and more religious
dogma as objectively false).


And that's a good thing since "dogma" is a creation of man, not of God.


Of course, since there is no reason to believe in a god. It's an
absurd belief for anybody living in our times. A belief that removes a
person from credibility.

And you yourself have expressed "faith-based thinking." You believe
(without evidence) that all alien civilizations destroy themselves
before they can become god-like. Remember? :-)


I don't "believe" this. I offer it as a plausible hypothesis to answer
the Fermi paradox, based on observation of human behavior. That's all.


And why would "human behavior apply to aliens?


It may not. But we can observe the things that allowed us to become a
technological species, including our tribalism, which is currently at
the core of our potential extinction, and recognize that this could be
characteristic of most species that follow our path. Again, a
hypothesis only needs to be plausible.

  #70  
Old September 16th 18, 03:35 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 8:57:50 AM UTC-6, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
There is a curious bunch of Americans who adopted the term 'Abrahamic' religion


This term is used to distinguish Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, which include
in their basis strong exclusive claims to being the sole truth, with all other
religions beinng wrong, and religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, which tend
towards the syncretic.

John Savard
 




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