No b.s. article about how NASA will continue to spend money at Michoud, no matter who wins the Ares I upper stage contract

New Orleans still playing a role
Despite Katrina, Michoud will build rocket components
BY JOHN KELLY
FLORIDA TODAY ADVERTISEMENT
http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...54/1007/news02


No surprises here. This is just one more data point that shows that Ares
I/V isn't about reducing costs so much as it's all about preserving jobs.
Unfortunately, preserving jobs also preserves high costs. :-P

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

No and Yes.

No, It is best to build the tanks in a place that is tooled to do the
job, (and has the skilled labor force in place).

Yes, in a better world it would be cool to have built the factory in
Florida to start with, (But the pork for the day was sent west).

It is easy to shoot from the stands. We are not in the fight on the
field. The balance of votes to get the bucks for the program will keep
folks working nation wide. It is a trade off made by short vision in
congress, (But no Bucks, No Buck Rodgers).

Carl

On Jan 17, 11:11 am, "Jeff Findley"
wrote:
New Orleans still playing a role
Despite Katrina, Michoud will build rocket components
BY JOHN KELLY
FLORIDA TODAY ADVERTISEMENThttp://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/NEWS0...

No surprises here. This is just one more data point that shows that Ares
I/V isn't about reducing costs so much as it's all about preserving jobs.
Unfortunately, preserving jobs also preserves high costs. :-P

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

"surfduke" wrote in message
ups.com...
No and Yes.

No, It is best to build the tanks in a place that is tooled to do the
job, (and has the skilled labor force in place).

Yes, in a better world it would be cool to have built the factory in
Florida to start with, (But the pork for the day was sent west).

It is easy to shoot from the stands. We are not in the fight on the
field. The balance of votes to get the bucks for the program will keep
folks working nation wide. It is a trade off made by short vision in
congress, (But no Bucks, No Buck Rodgers).

Carl

On Jan 17, 11:11 am, "Jeff Findley"
wrote:
New Orleans still playing a role
Despite Katrina, Michoud will build rocket components
BY JOHN KELLY
FLORIDA TODAY
ADVERTISEMENThttp://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/NEWS0...

No surprises here. This is just one more data point that shows that Ares
I/V isn't about reducing costs so much as it's all about preserving jobs.
Unfortunately, preserving jobs also preserves high costs. :-P


You miss the point that the money could be better spent. Why create a low
flight rate, high fixed cost launch system to replace a low flight rate,
high fixed cost launch system? Why create a new launch system at all when
you can buy commercial launches?


Here's a question for you. Are Delta IV or Atlas V boosters assembled at
Michoud?

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

Jeff Findley wrote:
New Orleans still playing a role
Despite Katrina, Michoud will build rocket components
BY JOHN KELLY
FLORIDA TODAY ADVERTISEMENT
http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...54/1007/news02


No surprises here. This is just one more data point that shows that Ares
I/V isn't about reducing costs so much as it's all about preserving jobs.
Unfortunately, preserving jobs also preserves high costs. :-P

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

Interesting statement jeff, as the story relates to the economic
hardship and recovery from hurricane Katrina, in a place where the
facilities already exist and if closed would yield more hardship for
the region. It is well within a legislative or administrative
politicians rights, and duties to work for the better interests of his
or her constituents, whether they be small or large regions as the
article also states the political support is just one of the reasons,
for the decision to keeping the michoud assembly facility operating
throughout the next phase of our nations manned space program.

Do you question the economics of all government programs or departments
of the administration with equal metrics as you do NASA's? Do you
view department of transportation funds that are allocated for the
improvement of the state highway system in your region as jobs programs
only, even though you directly and indirectly benefit from such
national and state tax payer investments that have been lobbied for and
appropriated, by your own legislators? And of any region in these
United States, one could make a damn good argument for a "jobs"
program in the region devastated by hurricane Katrina, as that was part
of the point of the floridatoday article you have referred to in this
thread.

tom

Jonathan wrote:
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation"
wrote in message
ups.com...

Jeff Findley wrote:
New Orleans still playing a role
Despite Katrina, Michoud will build rocket components
BY JOHN KELLY
FLORIDA TODAY ADVERTISEMENT

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...54/1007/news02


No surprises here. This is just one more data point that shows that
Ares
I/V isn't about reducing costs so much as it's all about preserving
jobs.
Unfortunately, preserving jobs also preserves high costs. :-P

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

Interesting statement jeff, as the story relates to the economic
hardship and recovery from hurricane Katrina, in a place where the
facilities already exist and if closed would yield more hardship for
the region. It is well within a legislative or administrative
politicians rights, and duties to work for the better interests of his
or her constituents, whether they be small or large regions as the
article also states the political support is just one of the reasons,
for the decision to keeping the michoud assembly facility operating
throughout the next phase of our nations manned space program.


And if a different approach would produce twice the jobs
for half the cost? While urban New Orleans returns to
it's crime and povery ridden past, white collar suburbs
appear to be getting taken care of quite nicely
it seems. Does anyone know how much money
per job this program will cost?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say half
a million bucks per job.

Economic recovery for the region effected by hurricane Katrina can be
achieved through private sector investing, and government contracts or
incentives, but debating the benefits of private sectors efficiency, as
compared to the government on the basis of costs does not take into
consideration the merits of the government program i.e. targeted
economic recovery for a disaster struck region, nor have you presented
the cost associated with your question above. Your question presumes
that the private sector contract recipient will create twice as many
jobs for half the cost, while you have not explained how a new company
would provide the infrastructure in the hurricane effected area,
without additional costs that would eventually be passed on to the us
tax payers as the existing infrastructure exists at the michoud
assembly facility, and any new company would either have to construct a
new facility or purchase the michoud plant for production to take place
in the hurricane devastated region. You see if you judge a governments
program or projects on costs alone without considering the societal
benefits, (i.e. economic recovery for a disaster struck region or a
companies adherences to federal employment practices) you disregard the
benefits of that program or project, and present a biased example. Now
if you, anybody, or any company would like to build a new facility
(maybe the size of michoud listed below), or expand your companies
service capabilities to the Katrina effected region please see the
webpage below where the Louisiana economic Development Department
marketed business to opportunities potential investors in new York
January 2006. On that page you will find the 3 federal forms of
investment incentives (block grants, bonds and tax relief) offered for
the exact purpose of stimulating economic recovery in the Katrina
effected region, and therefore the contract stipulation dictating the
upper stage of the Ares rocket will be assembled at the michoud
facility regardless of who the contractor is, as mentioned in the
floridatoday.com article, should be seen as the government stepping up
to the plate and investing in the hurricane effected region as it would
like the private sector to do so as well.


http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...54/1007/news02

New Orleans still playing a role Despite Katrina, Michoud will build
rocket components
BY JOHN KELLY
FLORIDA TODAY "The documents sent out to potential bidders spell out
the upper stage of the rocket will be assembled at Michoud regardless
of whether Boeing, Lockheed Martin or someone else lands the deal."

http://employeeorientation.nasa.gov/michoud/about.htm
"Manufacturing Capabilities
2.5 million ft2 manufacturing space
Full compliment of plant equipment, tooling, and skills for production
of large aerospace structures
Site Capabilities
832 acre site
800,000 ft2 office facilities
560,000 ft2 support facilities
27 major utility systems
Port/harbor facilities
Highway and rail access
Environmental Compliance
Eight operating permits in place
Industrial Wastewater Treatment Facility (IWTF)"

http://lded.state.la.us/press-archiv...-new-york.aspx
"Louisiana Economic Development (LED) Brings Recovery Message to New
York
January 27, 2006
LED Secretary Michael J. Olivier, LED Assistant Secretary Don Pierson
and Greater New Orleans, Inc. Chief Executive Officer Mark Drennen were
in New York this week to promote business opportunities in Louisiana.
Comments focused on three main aspects of the federal package:
A 50 percent bonus depreciation that relieves the
federal income tax burden on business property acquired since Hurricane
Katrina.
$7.9 billion in Gulf Opportunity Zone Bonds for business investment or
improvement
Community Development Block Grant dollars to assist businesses in the
form of: low to no-interest business loans; business grants; workforce
training; housing reparations; enhancing investor and tourist
confidence."

tom

I see Your point on the program. I too think We should go another
Route, (i.e. buy a lift from existing systems, (and scale Our hardware
to the lift cap.)). The problem again is getting the Bone heads in
Washington to listen to reason. We are going to have a system that will
hopefully be a alround work horse. Of course we already did have one
with Gemini & Apollo, (LOL). The only way to get off the rock is to
make deals with the big budget devil. As for helping the folks in N.O.,
LA. I worked on (2) FEMA contracts. I interviewed many who had the hand
out for everything they could grab after the storm. I am sick and tired
of worring about those who do not want to help themselves. All the
bleeding beggers out there that think that the choc. city should get
one more fed. dime need to have the old head checked out ASAP. I lived
in Florida thru Donna, till the late 80's. We got up after the storms,
got the local folks together, cleaned up, and went back to work. Time
to cut out the cancer that is sucking our funds dry. Cut them off, and
if they can't make it, to bad!!!!

And tell that K.West fella to go to hell!! I don't hate Black People! I
don't Hate anyone, I just want everyone to take some load and push!

Sorry for that little blast, (I just had a tooth pulled, (and the med's
are kicking in)).

Carl

On Jan 17, 5:26 pm, "Jeff Findley" wrote:
"surfduke" wrote in oglegroups.com...



No and Yes.

No, It is best to build the tanks in a place that is tooled to do the
job, (and has the skilled labor force in place).

Yes, in a better world it would be cool to have built the factory in
Florida to start with, (But the pork for the day was sent west).

It is easy to shoot from the stands. We are not in the fight on the
field. The balance of votes to get the bucks for the program will keep
folks working nation wide. It is a trade off made by short vision in
congress, (But no Bucks, No Buck Rodgers).

Carl

On Jan 17, 11:11 am, "Jeff Findley"
wrote:
New Orleans still playing a role
Despite Katrina, Michoud will build rocket components
BY JOHN KELLY
FLORIDA TODAY
ADVERTISEMENThttp://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/NEWS0...

No surprises here. This is just one more data point that shows that Ares
I/V isn't about reducing costs so much as it's all about preserving jobs.
Unfortunately, preserving jobs also preserves high costs. :-PYou miss the point that the money could be better spent. Why create a low
flight rate, high fixed cost launch system to replace a low flight rate,
high fixed cost launch system? Why create a new launch system at all when
you can buy commercial launches?

Here's a question for you. Are Delta IV or Atlas V boosters assembled at
Michoud?

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

"columbiaaccidentinvestigation"
wrote in message
ups.com...

Jeff Findley wrote:
New Orleans still playing a role
Despite Katrina, Michoud will build rocket components
BY JOHN KELLY
FLORIDA TODAY ADVERTISEMENT

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...54/1007/news02


No surprises here. This is just one more data point that shows that
Ares
I/V isn't about reducing costs so much as it's all about preserving
jobs.
Unfortunately, preserving jobs also preserves high costs. :-P

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

Interesting statement jeff, as the story relates to the economic
hardship and recovery from hurricane Katrina, in a place where the
facilities already exist and if closed would yield more hardship for
the region. It is well within a legislative or administrative
politicians rights, and duties to work for the better interests of his
or her constituents, whether they be small or large regions as the
article also states the political support is just one of the reasons,
for the decision to keeping the michoud assembly facility operating
throughout the next phase of our nations manned space program.


And if a different approach would produce twice the jobs
for half the cost? While urban New Orleans returns to
it's crime and povery ridden past, white collar suburbs
appear to be getting taken care of quite nicely
it seems. Does anyone know how much money
per job this program will cost?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say half
a million bucks per job.






Do you question the economics of all government programs or departments
of the administration with equal metrics as you do NASA's? Do you
view department of transportation funds that are allocated for the
improvement of the state highway system in your region as jobs programs
only, even though you directly and indirectly benefit from such
national and state tax payer investments that have been lobbied for and
appropriated, by your own legislators? And of any region in these
United States, one could make a damn good argument for a "jobs"
program in the region devastated by hurricane Katrina, as that was part
of the point of the floridatoday article you have referred to in this
thread.

tom

surfduke wrote:" As for helping the folks in N.O., LA. I worked on (2)
FEMA contracts. I interviewed many who had the hand out for everything
they could grab after the storm. I am sick and tired of worring about
those who do not want to help themselves. All the bleeding beggers out
there that think that the choc. city should get one more fed. dime need
to have the old head checked out ASAP. I lived in Florida thru Donna,
till the late 80's. We got up after the storms, got the local folks
together, cleaned up, and went back to work. Time to cut out the cancer
that is sucking our funds dry. Cut them off, and if they can't make it,
to bad!!!! And tell that K.West fella to go to hell!! I don't hate
Black People! I don't Hate anyone, I just want everyone to take some
load and push! Sorry for that little blast, (I just had a tooth pulled,
(and the med's are kicking in))."

Thank you surfduke, for your service to our country, but as a u.s. tax
payer paid government relief worker who assisted others through the
traumatic event of hurricane Katrina, you yourself like many other
relief workers may be suffering from post traumatic stress disorder
(and I do not mean that in a condescending manner, but with absolute
respect for the work you have done). But even though you excuse your
words of belligerence due to "meds", posting words of inequality
without merit that overtly promote, or disguise intolerance against
others, simply represents an injustice to humanity.

surfduke wrote:"I see Your point on the program. I too think We should
go another Route, (i.e. buy a lift from existing systems, (and scale
Our hardware to the lift cap.)). The problem again is getting the Bone
heads in Washington to listen to reason. We are going to have a system
that will hopefully be a alround work horse. Of course we already did
have one with Gemini & Apollo, (LOL). The only way to get off the rock
is to make deals with the big budget devil."

Now with respect to the contract stipulation dictating the upper stage
of the Ares rocket will be assembled at the michoud facility regardless
of who the contractor maybe we should take a read from the NASA
directors words to a lobby group the space transportation association
listed below where he basically states that the proponents of private
enterprise tend to present "ideological ideals" when stating how
government should act and these same proponents gloss over many complex
issues and policies associated with "space endeavors" (much like
the posts on this, and other threads).

http://www.comspacewatch.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=23012

Prepared Comments by Michael Griffin before the Space Transportation
Association
NASA and Commercial Space: Public Trust and Private Interest
11 January 2007
"So, if those of us who've spent our lives doing it can see the
obvious problems with government procurement mechanisms that are
"traditional" in the aerospace and defense sector, but nowhere else,
how did we get into this mess, and why do we stay there? It is here
that I think a bit of perspective is in order. I can offer none better
than Stephen Johnson's text, The Secret of Apollo. Steve takes the
reader through the history of systems management, the discipline which
evolved to help us deal with negotiated contracts for the development
of large, complex systems. And, for balance, I can offer nothing better
than Faster, Better, Cheaper, Howard McCurdy's treatment of NASA's
reaction to the excesses of systems management. Both are available
through the NASA History series.
Considering these excesses, many people have asked me: why can't NASA
operate more like a business? Why can't NASA simply hand a set of
requirements and money over to commercial space companies? These are
excellent questions, and the answers require careful consideration.
Indeed, I just spoke about many things that we are doing to manage the
Agency in a more business-like way, and how some inefficiencies are
accepted to ensure good program management of large, complex
engineering projects. While I consider myself a proponent of commercial
space endeavors, many other proponents tend to gloss over the
difficulties of systems engineering and program management of complex
systems in favor of ideological ideals as to how government should act
more like commercial enterprise. I am concerned that those proponents
have not considered either the technical or public policy issues along
with the business case behind many of their assertions. So, let me
address some of those."


tom

I build homes for the masses, (Yes I am trailer Trash). I have built
for (6) FEMA contracts, (and installed 1,000's of homes). I in no-way
want to see anyone go without. But You must realize by now that the
N.O. mess is just that. The Federal goverment needs to be focused on
the short term rescue, housing, and health needs. It is now up to the
joke that the locals there hired back to take on the job of rebuilding,
that drain on the welfare budget. You have 4th gen. welfare folks
walking around like I owe them a living, (I want to fund the future,
not the failed past, (i.e. the great soc.)). The upper stage being
built in the back yard of this hell hole, is not my first choice
either. I would much rather have it in Florida. To be staight, I would
rather see us build in Port Jacksonville, and launch at sea, (with a
better system of hardware). What I want will never happen, (due to pork
politics). What we will get is more fatherless children, sucking up
needed funding, (and NASA centers underfunded, and scattered here and
yonder across the plain).

Reality sucks, "I want the 2001 future, I was promised"!! Guess I will
have to wait, (until I can figure out a way to get Okra to let me beg
to SUV Mom's in the afternoon).

Have a great day,

Carl

On Jan 18, 10:46 pm, "columbiaaccidentinvestigation"
wrote:
surfduke wrote:" As for helping the folks in N.O., LA. I worked on (2)FEMA contracts. I interviewed many who had the hand out for everything
they could grab after the storm. I am sick and tired of worring about
those who do not want to help themselves. All the bleeding beggers out
there that think that the choc. city should get one more fed. dime need
to have the old head checked out ASAP. I lived in Florida thru Donna,
till the late 80's. We got up after the storms, got the local folks
together, cleaned up, and went back to work. Time to cut out the cancer
that is sucking our funds dry. Cut them off, and if they can't make it,
to bad!!!! And tell that K.West fella to go to hell!! I don't hate
Black People! I don't Hate anyone, I just want everyone to take some
load and push! Sorry for that little blast, (I just had a tooth pulled,
(and the med's are kicking in))."

Thank you surfduke, for your service to our country, but as a u.s. tax
payer paid government relief worker who assisted others through the
traumatic event of hurricane Katrina, you yourself like many other
relief workers may be suffering from post traumatic stress disorder
(and I do not mean that in a condescending manner, but with absolute
respect for the work you have done). But even though you excuse your
words of belligerence due to "meds", posting words of inequality
without merit that overtly promote, or disguise intolerance against
others, simply represents an injustice to humanity.

surfduke wrote:"I see Your point on the program. I too think We shouldgo another Route, (i.e. buy a lift from existing systems, (and scale
Our hardware to the lift cap.)). The problem again is getting the Bone
heads in Washington to listen to reason. We are going to have a system
that will hopefully be a alround work horse. Of course we already did
have one with Gemini & Apollo, (LOL). The only way to get off the rock
is to make deals with the big budget devil."

Now with respect to the contract stipulation dictating the upper stage
of the Ares rocket will be assembled at the michoud facility regardless
of who the contractor maybe we should take a read from the NASA
directors words to a lobby group the space transportation association
listed below where he basically states that the proponents of private
enterprise tend to present "ideological ideals" when stating how
government should act and these same proponents gloss over many complex
issues and policies associated with "space endeavors" (much like
the posts on this, and other threads).

http://www.comspacewatch.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=23012

Prepared Comments by Michael Griffin before the Space Transportation
Association
NASA and Commercial Space: Public Trust and Private Interest
11 January 2007
"So, if those of us who've spent our lives doing it can see the
obvious problems with government procurement mechanisms that are
"traditional" in the aerospace and defense sector, but nowhere else,
how did we get into this mess, and why do we stay there? It is here
that I think a bit of perspective is in order. I can offer none better
than Stephen Johnson's text, The Secret of Apollo. Steve takes the
reader through the history of systems management, the discipline which
evolved to help us deal with negotiated contracts for the development
of large, complex systems. And, for balance, I can offer nothing better
than Faster, Better, Cheaper, Howard McCurdy's treatment of NASA's
reaction to the excesses of systems management. Both are available
through the NASA History series.
Considering these excesses, many people have asked me: why can't NASA
operate more like a business? Why can't NASA simply hand a set of
requirements and money over to commercial space companies? These are
excellent questions, and the answers require careful consideration.
Indeed, I just spoke about many things that we are doing to manage the
Agency in a more business-like way, and how some inefficiencies are
accepted to ensure good program management of large, complex
engineering projects. While I consider myself a proponent of commercial
space endeavors, many other proponents tend to gloss over the
difficulties of systems engineering and program management of complex
systems in favor of ideological ideals as to how government should act
more like commercial enterprise. I am concerned that those proponents
have not considered either the technical or public policy issues along
with the business case behind many of their assertions. So, let me
address some of those."

tom

surfduke wrote:
I build homes for the masses, (Yes I am trailer Trash). I have built
for (6) FEMA contracts, (and installed 1,000's of homes). I in no-way
want to see anyone go without. But You must realize by now that the
N.O. mess is just that. The Federal goverment needs to be focused on
the short term rescue, housing, and health needs. It is now up to the
joke that the locals there hired back to take on the job of rebuilding,
that drain on the welfare budget. You have 4th gen. welfare folks
walking around like I owe them a living, (I want to fund the future,
not the failed past, (i.e. the great soc.)). The upper stage being
built in the back yard of this hell hole, is not my first choice
either. I would much rather have it in Florida. To be staight, I would
rather see us build in Port Jacksonville, and launch at sea, (with a
better system of hardware). What I want will never happen, (due to pork
politics). What we will get is more fatherless children, sucking up
needed funding, (and NASA centers underfunded, and scattered here and
yonder across the plain).

Reality sucks, "I want the 2001 future, I was promised"!! Guess I will
have to wait, (until I can figure out a way to get Okra to let me beg
to SUV Mom's in the afternoon).


Now if you really do believe the words you posted, then you might see
the benefit of keeping the jobs in the Katrina hurricane ravaged
region, and how that action would allow people to provide for
themselves, which then means you should at least understand the
benefits of the NASA contract stipulation for the Ares construction,
will assist in preventing more people from needing a government
provided safety net. Government manages scarce resources, by making
choices and priorities as to where to spend tax payer money, which by
nature is political. Now if you do not like the political decisions of
our government or your legislators it is well within your right to show
displeasure, but you also must understand that you have inherently made
a political argument in your post (i.e. building a new complex in a
location you think would be better with tax payer dollars, than where
the NASA contract stipulates at the existing michoud assembly facility
in Louisiana) or in other words some people may view your idea of where
to build a new complex as "pork politics", because one already
exists. So once again with respect to NASA's decision for the Ares
upper stage construction be done at the michoud assembly I refer you to
the nasa administrators words that you should not present
"ideological ideals" when stating how government should act, while
glossing over many complex issues and policies associated with "space
endeavors" (much like the posts on this, and other threads).

tom