How Scientists Plan To Send Hibernating Astronauts to Mars

simulations are always simulations and it can be difficult with umans so far from earth........

"bob haller" wrote in message
...

simulations are always simulations and it can be difficult with umans so
far from earth........



Why? Prove it and cite examples.

We've given you counter-examples of why we don't think so.



--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

"Robert Clark" wrote in message ...


From the example of people who are bed ridden for long periods on Earth, I
think you
would still have the problem of bone and muscle mass loss even if you had
artificial
gravity.

No. I think you misunderstand the issue.

At a VERY simple level, you have two things going on in bones. Some cells
creating new bone, osteoblasts, and osteoclasts which breaks down bone.

This is happening continually (there's a number of reasons that the human
body wants to break down bone tissue)
Bone creation, among other things is due to "stress". Generally think
something as simple as "walking" which stresses the bone.

In bed rest, or zero-g, there's very little stress on the bones.

Apparently what happens is the osteoclasts continue their job of breaking
down bone cells. But, the stimulus for osteoblasts is basically gone. So
rather than be in balance, now one is way ahead out of another.

Artificial gravity where the astronauts can stand and work in a 1-g field
would almost certainly create the stimulus (through stress on the bones)
that osteoblasts require.

Now, going out on a limb, my guess is if we ever DID do artificial
hibernation, it would slow down both processes, meaning minimal or at least
far less bone loss. This would be a win also.

BTW, one reason for studying zero-G is to get a better idea in younger,
healthier individuals of the hormones and chemical pathways involved in both
processes and seeing if there's a better way to stimulate osteoblasts or
suppress osteoclasts. This could lead to better treatments for
osteoporosis.



Bob Clark




--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 8:21:34 AM UTC+12, bob haller wrote:
ISS crews with spare time spend much of it looking down at earth.



On a trip to mars earth will be a blue small star



nasa has admitted this could be a issue......



on ISS they KNOW they can get back to earth in a matter of hours, not on a mars trip....

Suspended animation takes 'spam in a can' to a whole new level.

http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=17449

Mark Roth's work in suspended animation derives from the fact that humans exhibit a great deal of "metabolic flexibility," which means they have the ability to dial down their respiration and heartbeat and, in effect, "turn themselves off" in response to changes in their atmosphere and temperature.

It is possible to cause humans to go dormant for days, months, and even years before reanimating. During hibernation germ and somatic stem cells are well known to exit the cell cycle for extended periods of time and to re-enter following hibernation recovery.

Roth's approach is to understand this flexibility and develop the means to stop activity for given periods of time and then reanimate back to normal function. Roth uses the term suspended animation to refer to a state where all observable life processes even down to high resolution light microscopy are stopped: There is no motion, no breath and the heart does not beat. Roth has found that a state of suspended animation may be achieved through one basic technique: reducing the concentration of oxygen.

By examining the precise oxygen tensions needed to induce suspended animation, Roth has found discrete and lethal oxygen tensions exist just above the oxygen level that enables suspended animation. In other words, there is a range of oxygen levels that is too low to support life, but going below that causes the animals to suspend. Roth prevents death in low oxygen situations by adding agents that effectively inhibit oxygen utilization and induces suspended animation.

Carbon monoxide, a well-known gas, is extremely toxic because it does exactly that: binds to sites where oxygen binds in the body. Roth found that he can successfully achieve a state of suspended animation using carbon monoxide, and these results encouraged the search for other systems and agents.

Using another highly toxic gas, hydrogen sulfide, Roth found he can reversibly reduce the metabolic rates with 80 ppm of hydrogen sulfide to createa "hibernation-like" state, where core temperature is reduced by 11 degrees celsius and metabolic rate as judged by carbon dioxide production and oxygen consumption drops 10-fold. This state has been maintained for up to 6 hours and recovery is complete.

This success in altering the metabolic rate provides the tools to pursue several promising lines of research, including whether it might be possible to 'suspend' human organs (for transplant) or to 'buy time' for human patients in trauma.

The ability to suspend activity for months or years at the cellular level makes this process suitable for long-duration spaceflight to the planets and even the stars.

http://cmapspaceexp.ihmc.us/rid%3D1J...%2520Venus.pdf

Eleven years ago researchers at Purdue University outlined a series of missions that involved free return trajectories from Earth to Mars and Venus and back to Earth. These had the benefit of allowing astronauts to fly back if nothing was done en-route, but also had the capacity to stop at Mars and return after a short stay, or return after a long stay. This provides quite a flexible mission.

Two astronauts each with two tonnes of hardware to sustain them throughout the journey. One mission leaves Earth on 24 Mar 2017 encounters Venus 9 Sep 2017 during a fly by and encounters 9 Mar 2018, departs Mars 7 Jun 2018 and returns to Earth 24 Nov 2018.

A flyby mission leaving Earth on 9 Jan 2014 would fly by Mars 26 May 2014 and encounter Earth again 9 Jan 2018. It would also pass at apohelion through the inner part of the main asteroid belt. This mission could be carried out with a modified Shenzou spacecraft carrying two astronauts instead of three, and shortening their stay times to 14 days for the two instead of 20 days for three. The astronauts would be asleep most of the time, spending two days near Earth upon departure two days near Earth upon return and six days around Mars with four days to spare. They would be launched with a Changzheng 500 launcher ton the trajectory to achieve the 5.02 km/sec hyperbolic excess velocity.

Prior to their successful return in 2018, the Chinese would launch two Changzheng 500s to send two people to the surface of Mars leaving in 2017.

The trans-Mars injection stage using hydrogen and oxygen would double as a lander. The lander would use solar panels and water on the surface of Mars during their stay to refuel their lander for return to Earth with hydrogen and oxygen obtained from solar electrolysis of water found on Mars.

These are highly risky missions, but could be structured as a public private partnership to handle that aspect politically for the government.

On Tuesday, September 10, 2013 6:44:53 PM UTC+12, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 8:21:34 AM UTC+12, bob haller wrote:

ISS crews with spare time spend much of it looking down at earth.







On a trip to mars earth will be a blue small star







nasa has admitted this could be a issue......







on ISS they KNOW they can get back to earth in a matter of hours, not on a mars trip....



Suspended animation takes 'spam in a can' to a whole new level.



http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=17449



Mark Roth's work in suspended animation derives from the fact that humans exhibit a great deal of "metabolic flexibility," which means they have the ability to dial down their respiration and heartbeat and, in effect, "turn themselves off" in response to changes in their atmosphere and temperature..



It is possible to cause humans to go dormant for days, months, and even years before reanimating. During hibernation germ and somatic stem cells are well known to exit the cell cycle for extended periods of time and to re-enter following hibernation recovery.



Roth's approach is to understand this flexibility and develop the means to stop activity for given periods of time and then reanimate back to normal function. Roth uses the term suspended animation to refer to a state where all observable life processes even down to high resolution light microscopy are stopped: There is no motion, no breath and the heart does not beat. Roth has found that a state of suspended animation may be achieved through one basic technique: reducing the concentration of oxygen.



By examining the precise oxygen tensions needed to induce suspended animation, Roth has found discrete and lethal oxygen tensions exist just above the oxygen level that enables suspended animation. In other words, there is a range of oxygen levels that is too low to support life, but going below that causes the animals to suspend. Roth prevents death in low oxygen situations by adding agents that effectively inhibit oxygen utilization and induces suspended animation.



Carbon monoxide, a well-known gas, is extremely toxic because it does exactly that: binds to sites where oxygen binds in the body. Roth found that he can successfully achieve a state of suspended animation using carbon monoxide, and these results encouraged the search for other systems and agents.



Using another highly toxic gas, hydrogen sulfide, Roth found he can reversibly reduce the metabolic rates with 80 ppm of hydrogen sulfide to createa "hibernation-like" state, where core temperature is reduced by 11 degrees celsius and metabolic rate as judged by carbon dioxide production and oxygen consumption drops 10-fold. This state has been maintained for up to 6 hours and recovery is complete.



This success in altering the metabolic rate provides the tools to pursue several promising lines of research, including whether it might be possible to 'suspend' human organs (for transplant) or to 'buy time' for human patients in trauma.



The ability to suspend activity for months or years at the cellular level makes this process suitable for long-duration spaceflight to the planets and even the stars.



http://cmapspaceexp.ihmc.us/rid%3D1J...%2520Venus.pdf



Eleven years ago researchers at Purdue University outlined a series of missions that involved free return trajectories from Earth to Mars and Venus and back to Earth. These had the benefit of allowing astronauts to fly back if nothing was done en-route, but also had the capacity to stop at Mars and return after a short stay, or return after a long stay. This provides quite a flexible mission.



Two astronauts each with two tonnes of hardware to sustain them throughout the journey. One mission leaves Earth on 24 Mar 2017 encounters Venus 9 Sep 2017 during a fly by and encounters 9 Mar 2018, departs Mars 7 Jun 2018 and returns to Earth 24 Nov 2018.



A flyby mission leaving Earth on 9 Jan 2014 would fly by Mars 26 May 2014 and encounter Earth again 9 Jan 2018. It would also pass at apohelion through the inner part of the main asteroid belt. This mission could be carried out with a modified Shenzou spacecraft carrying two astronauts instead of three, and shortening their stay times to 14 days for the two instead of 20 days for three. The astronauts would be asleep most of the time, spending two days near Earth upon departure two days near Earth upon return and six days around Mars with four days to spare. They would be launched with a Changzheng 500 launcher ton the trajectory to achieve the 5.02 km/sec hyperbolic excess velocity.



Prior to their successful return in 2018, the Chinese would launch two Changzheng 500s to send two people to the surface of Mars leaving in 2017.



The trans-Mars injection stage using hydrogen and oxygen would double as a lander. The lander would use solar panels and water on the surface of Mars during their stay to refuel their lander for return to Earth with hydrogen and oxygen obtained from solar electrolysis of water found on Mars.



These are highly risky missions, but could be structured as a public private partnership to handle that aspect politically for the government.


The Long-March 5 puts 25,000 kg into LEO and 14,000 kg into GTO. The modified Shenzou is 7,800 kg. A cryogenic boost stage that doubled as a Mars lander, carrying the Shenzou down to the Martian surface. It masses 1,700 kg empty and carries 15,500 kg of cryogenic propellants on orbit but can carry 33,000 kg of cryogenic propellants when fill fully.

The modified Shenzou and new boost stage leave LEO after checkout attaining 12.03 km/sec ultimate velocity, attaining 4.43 km/sec hyperbolic excess velocity needed to sustain the journey. The entire system aerobrakes at Mars and lands on the Martian surface. There is stays 90 days. In the first week 45.7 cubic meters of water (a cube 12 feet on a side) must be found and deposited in the solar powered electrolyzer which remains on Mars. This electrolyzer produces 261.9 kilowatts of power at peak. It processes all the water into hydrogen and oxygen and converts it to cryogenic fuels for storage aboard the spacecraft. It makes use of a 32 meter (105 ft) diameter inflatable concentrating mirror that focuses sunlight down to a 200 mm spot. Here a MEMS based machine etched into a wafer immersed in liquid water converts sunlight and water into hydrogen and oxygen using high temperature electrolysis.

In the end 5,077 kg of hydrogen and 45,693 kg of oxygen is stored aboard the booster. The system after 90 days on the Martian surface blasts off for Earth and returns to Earth 5.5 months later. In all the two astronauts spend two days at Earth departure awake, two days at Earth return awake, three days at Mars arrival awake, and three days at Mars departure awake, with four days reserve. The ability to extend life support by supplying water and oxygen to the system using Mars water, is reviewed after the first three days and then the first week, and then every week thereafter for 12 weeks.

If anything happens on Mars where the astronauts cannot return, they have the option of putting themselves into suspended animation and awakening for a few days at every synodic period - the times when help might arrive - or when provisions may have been stored up by the system operating automatically.

Another possibility is merely to dock with a second landing stage at LEO to top off the half empty landing stage attached to the Shenzou spacecraft with an additional 15,000 kg of cryogenic propellant and transfers a number of automated remotely controlled drones to the spacecraft. The spacecraft then aerobrakes into an orbit around Mars deploys the drones to the surface and docks with Diemos and Phobos as they explore the planet remotely. They use 9,758 kg of propellant to return from Mars orbit to Earth when the planets are in proper position.

So,

2016 - two year fly by of Mars.

2018 - 90 day stay on Mars orbit, landing on Diemos and Phobos, drone operations from orbit. (look for water, deploy 'water mine')

2020 - 90 day stay on Mars' surface, refuelling on Mars from water mine.

All using suspended animation to reduce life support requirements and spacecraft size while providing added emergency procedures.