Looking for Oregon meteorites

I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
for meteorites in the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13 meteorites or fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

Daniel B. Wheeler

wrote in message
...
I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
for meteorites in the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13 meteorites or fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

Daniel B. Wheeler

General characteristics of iron meteorites, including the Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection of meteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

"Mike Dworetsky" ) writes:
wrote in message
...
I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
for meteorites in the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13 meteorites or fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

Daniel B. Wheeler

General characteristics of iron meteorites, including the Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it.

Surely the Widmanstaetten patterns are visible only after the object is
cut, polished and etched--so you'd need strong suspicions about it
before you'd even look for them.

--John Park

I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection of meteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

"John Park" wrote in message
...
"Mike Dworetsky" ) writes:
wrote in message
...
I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
for meteorites in the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13 meteorites or fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

Daniel B. Wheeler

General characteristics of iron meteorites, including the Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already
knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it.

Surely the Widmanstaetten patterns are visible only after the object is
cut, polished and etched--so you'd need strong suspicions about it
before you'd even look for them.

--John Park


Absolutely. Just looking at the meteorite (and having a general idea that
such things exist and look like this example) is a pretty strong clue. The
pattern test is a final clincher. If you ever get a chance, do visit that
museum in Vienna, a whole room full of meteorites, though nothing on the
scale of the American Museum's giants.

I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection of meteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History
Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century
so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century
popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.



--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

On Sep 20, 1:16 am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
wrote in message

...



I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

Daniel B. Wheeler

General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Your comment regarding the Widmanstaten diagrams or patterns is well
taken, Mike. The problem is that Elis Hughes knew nothing about them
until well after the meteorite had been taken from him. He identified
the stone as a meteorite, along with a miner named Dale, before a
meteorite expert was dispatched from the east to confirm the
identification.

I strongly suspect Elis Hughes knew it was a meteorite because another
meteorite, according to one account I found, fell in the Tigard
vicinity in 1900-01, and was subsequently displayed at the 1905 Lewis
& Clark World's Fair in Portland. Almost at the very end, the
Willamette was finally taken to the Fair and displayed for the last
few weeks of the exhibit.

But Elis found the meteorite in 1902. Moving the meteorite, a rather
heroic fete considering he used his son and one horse to move the 15
1/2 ton stone nearly 3/4 of a mile to his home, implies that he knew
absolutely that the stone was a meteorite before attempting to move
it. I would posit the only way Elis Hughes could have been positive of
his identification was because he had already seen another meteorite -
one which has since been lost to science. Other than a single
reference of a boy who supposedly witnessed the Tigard meteorite fall
almost 80 years later, I have found nothing about this stone. Of
course, the main building of the Lewis & Clark World's Fair, a massive
wooden log cabin structure, was burnt in a fire a few years after the
fair ended.

Another oddity: I am also tracing multiple fragments of meteorites
which fell in the Portland area 2-5 years before Hughes' discovery of
the Willamette. According to articles published about 1900, a large
bolide exploded several miles above the Columbia River near Scappoose,
and showered the area from Scappose to Tigard with multiple fragments.
Oddly, many of these fragments were later recovered. Why? A recent
snow storm had left some 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, and people
heard object hitting nearby, then found a hole in the snow (one if a
strawberry patch!) and found a blackish rock in the bottom of the
hole. But no one called them meteorites at the time. I believe they
were referred to only as fireballs. Although by the time they hit
earth they were not on fire at all. Many of these fragments were later
displayed in a downtown Portland department store window for some
time, before being donated to a local museum. That museum now has
hosted displays of part of the H.H.Nininger collection. But apparently
does not know they also may have multiple pieces of a more local
meteorite already in their collections.

The most interesting thing about historical research is ... many times
things get forgotten quickly.

Daniel B. Wheeler

On Sep 20, 11:32 pm, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
"John Park" wrote in message

...



"Mike Dworetsky" ) writes:
wrote in message
...
I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

Daniel B. Wheeler

General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already
knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it.

Surely the Widmanstaetten patterns are visible only after the object is
cut, polished and etched--so you'd need strong suspicions about it
before you'd even look for them.

--John Park

Absolutely. Just looking at the meteorite (and having a general idea that
such things exist and look like this example) is a pretty strong clue. The
pattern test is a final clincher. If you ever get a chance, do visit that
museum in Vienna, a whole room full ofmeteorites, though nothing on the
scale of the American Museum's giants.

I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History
Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century
so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century
popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.

--
Mike Dworetsky
You are certainly correct, Mike. I suspect John is also correct. But
while these object were generally known and accepted in the early
1800's in Europe, Thomas Jefferson once said he believed it easier to
believe 2 Yankee professors were lying rather than accept that stones
could fall from the sky. That was 1807, I believe.

When dealing with history, it's important to know who discovered what,
and when.

There are other positive factors that can identify meteorites in the
field. Iron-nickel meteorites are often attracted to magnets, and may
well be magnetic in their own right. The metallic composition of a
metallic meteorite also makes a ringing sound when struck by another
object. The Willamette would ring when struck by a hand, a test that
Hughes used himself.

But if Hughes knew the stone was a meteorite on site, he must have
already seen a meteorite somewhere. If not the Tigard meteorite, which
may have fallen about 15 miles away from West Linn a few years
earlier, then where did Hughes see this meteorite? Which meteorite was
it?

Daniel B. Wheeler

wrote in message
...
On Sep 20, 11:32 pm, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
"John Park" wrote in message

...



"Mike Dworetsky" ) writes:
wrote in message
...
I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which
zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

Daniel B. Wheeler

General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the
Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already
knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it.

Surely the Widmanstaetten patterns are visible only after the object is
cut, polished and etched--so you'd need strong suspicions about it
before you'd even look for them.

--John Park

Absolutely. Just looking at the meteorite (and having a general idea
that
such things exist and look like this example) is a pretty strong clue.
The
pattern test is a final clincher. If you ever get a chance, do visit
that
museum in Vienna, a whole room full ofmeteorites, though nothing on the
scale of the American Museum's giants.

I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for
example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection
ofmeteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History
Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th
century
so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century
popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.

--
Mike Dworetsky
You are certainly correct, Mike. I suspect John is also correct. But
while these object were generally known and accepted in the early
1800's in Europe, Thomas Jefferson once said he believed it easier to
believe 2 Yankee professors were lying rather than accept that stones
could fall from the sky. That was 1807, I believe.


He was wrong, of course. Everyone makes mistakes, except the Pope, who is
infallible. (Yes, I know, in matters of faith.)

When dealing with history, it's important to know who discovered what,
and when.

There are other positive factors that can identify meteorites in the
field. Iron-nickel meteorites are often attracted to magnets, and may
well be magnetic in their own right. The metallic composition of a
metallic meteorite also makes a ringing sound when struck by another
object. The Willamette would ring when struck by a hand, a test that
Hughes used himself.

But if Hughes knew the stone was a meteorite on site, he must have
already seen a meteorite somewhere. If not the Tigard meteorite, which
may have fallen about 15 miles away from West Linn a few years
earlier, then where did Hughes see this meteorite? Which meteorite was
it?

Daniel B. Wheeler

These are questions I cannot answer, someone would have to do more research
(not me).

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

wrote in message
...
On Sep 20, 1:16 am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
wrote in message

...



I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

Daniel B. Wheeler

General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already
knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History
Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century
so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century
popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Your comment regarding the Widmanstaten diagrams or patterns is well
taken, Mike. The problem is that Elis Hughes knew nothing about them
until well after the meteorite had been taken from him. He identified
the stone as a meteorite, along with a miner named Dale, before a
meteorite expert was dispatched from the east to confirm the
identification.

I strongly suspect Elis Hughes knew it was a meteorite because another
meteorite, according to one account I found, fell in the Tigard
vicinity in 1900-01, and was subsequently displayed at the 1905 Lewis
& Clark World's Fair in Portland. Almost at the very end, the
Willamette was finally taken to the Fair and displayed for the last
few weeks of the exhibit.

But Elis found the meteorite in 1902. Moving the meteorite, a rather
heroic fete considering he used his son and one horse to move the 15
1/2 ton stone nearly 3/4 of a mile to his home, implies that he knew
absolutely that the stone was a meteorite before attempting to move
it. I would posit the only way Elis Hughes could have been positive of
his identification was because he had already seen another meteorite -
one which has since been lost to science. Other than a single
reference of a boy who supposedly witnessed the Tigard meteorite fall
almost 80 years later, I have found nothing about this stone. Of
course, the main building of the Lewis & Clark World's Fair, a massive
wooden log cabin structure, was burnt in a fire a few years after the
fair ended.

Another oddity: I am also tracing multiple fragments of meteorites
which fell in the Portland area 2-5 years before Hughes' discovery of
the Willamette. According to articles published about 1900, a large
bolide exploded several miles above the Columbia River near Scappoose,
and showered the area from Scappose to Tigard with multiple fragments.
Oddly, many of these fragments were later recovered. Why? A recent
snow storm had left some 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, and people
heard object hitting nearby, then found a hole in the snow (one if a
strawberry patch!) and found a blackish rock in the bottom of the
hole. But no one called them meteorites at the time. I believe they
were referred to only as fireballs. Although by the time they hit
earth they were not on fire at all. Many of these fragments were later
displayed in a downtown Portland department store window for some
time, before being donated to a local museum. That museum now has
hosted displays of part of the H.H.Nininger collection. But apparently
does not know they also may have multiple pieces of a more local
meteorite already in their collections.

The most interesting thing about historical research is ... many times
things get forgotten quickly.

Daniel B. Wheeler

Interesting stuff! Aside from making a direct comparison, could he not have
read about meteorites in books and even seen pictures? Most of the tests
described by you were known then and he would almost certainly have owned a
compass.

The other Portland object was almost certainly a stony meteorite; irons do
not explode so easily.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

On Sep 21, 1:53*am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
wrote in message

...



On Sep 20, 1:16 am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
wrote in message

....

I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

DanielB.Wheeler

General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already
knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. *I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History
Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century
so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century
popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Your comment regarding the Widmanstaten diagrams or patterns is well
taken, Mike. The problem is that Elis Hughes knew nothing about them
until well after the meteorite had been taken from him. He identified
the stone as a meteorite, along with a miner named Dale, before a
meteorite expert was dispatched from the east to confirm the
identification.

I strongly suspect Elis Hughes knew it was a meteorite because another
meteorite, according to one account I found, fell in the Tigard
vicinity in 1900-01, and was subsequently displayed at the 1905 Lewis
& Clark World's Fair in Portland. Almost at the very end, the
Willamette was finally taken to the Fair and displayed for the last
few weeks of the exhibit.

But Elis found the meteorite in 1902. Moving the meteorite, a rather
heroic fete considering he used his son and one horse to move the 15
1/2 ton stone nearly 3/4 of a mile to his home, implies that he knew
absolutely that the stone was a meteorite before attempting to move
it. I would posit the only way Elis Hughes could have been positive of
his identification was because he had already seen another meteorite -
one which has since been lost to science. Other than a single
reference of a boy who supposedly witnessed the Tigard meteorite fall
almost 80 years later, I have found nothing about this stone. Of
course, the main building of the Lewis & Clark World's Fair, a massive
wooden log cabin structure, was burnt in a fire a few years after the
fair ended.

Another oddity: I am also tracing multiple fragments of meteorites
which fell in the Portland area 2-5 years before Hughes' discovery of
the Willamette. According to articles published about 1900, a large
bolide exploded several miles above the Columbia River near Scappoose,
and showered the area from Scappose to Tigard with multiple fragments.
Oddly, many of these fragments were later recovered. Why? A recent
snow storm had left some 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, and people
heard object hitting nearby, then found a hole in the snow (one if a
strawberry patch!) and found a blackish rock in the bottom of the
hole. But no one called them meteorites at the time. I believe they
were referred to only as fireballs. Although by the time they hit
earth they were not on fire at all. Many of these fragments were later
displayed in a downtown Portland department store window for some
time, before being donated to a local museum. That museum now has
hosted displays of part of the H.H.Nininger collection. But apparently
does not know they also may have multiple pieces of a more local
meteorite already in their collections.

The most interesting thing about historical research is ... many times
things get forgotten quickly.

DanielB.Wheeler

Interesting stuff! *Aside from making a direct comparison, could he not have
read about meteorites in books and even seen pictures? *Most of the tests
described by you were known then and he would almost certainly have owned a
compass.

The other Portland object was almost certainly a stony meteorite; irons do
not explode so easily.

The tests for meteorites were certainly known, but not in Oregon.
According to Ellis' own testimony and the subsequent trials here in
Oregon, where possession of the meteorite was first awarded to the
Oregon Iron and Steel Company, and subsequently to the Grand Ronde
Indians (representing the Clackamas Indians). But while Ellis seems
certain of his identification of the stone as a meteorite, there is
nothing else giving positive identification. Even the experts who
subsequently examined the stone waited until the samples taken were
etched before concluding the stone was a massive meteorite.

This bring up a completely different point: how did such a massive
meteorite make it through the atmosphere and landing impact (probably
somewhere in either Montana or Canada) without being broken/destroyed?
Yes, it is a form of stainless steel, which would have greater
resistance to impacts of any kind. But supposedly large meteorites are
destroyed largely by the effects of ablation through the atmosphere.

Obviously, this doesn't hold true in all cases! The South African
(Hoba?) meteorite is some 60 tons. Another meteorite I have a lead on
was much larger, possibly in the 90-120 tons range, making it the
largest such rock currently known in the world.

Still another point: meteoritic material is the source of all platinum-
group metals, according to my chemistry prof at Oregon State
University. Yet, there are a few places were platinum, osmium,
iridium, palladium, etc. are commercially found in quantities to
warrant their extraction alone. Typically they are extracted as a by-
product of gold, silver, or copper mining. No meteor has been found of
solid or near solid platinum (yeah, I know, that asteroid is largely
platinum). Question: Would platinum retain more of its mass through
the ablation process? Or would something largely platinum (say 40%)
still burn off as quickly, more quickly, or less quickly?

Daniel B. Wheeler

wrote in message
...
On Sep 21, 1:53 am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
wrote in message

...



On Sep 20, 1:16 am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
wrote in message

...

I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of
known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900.

I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs
known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which
zoomed
across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA.

Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000
pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall.
Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to
move it a short distance?

One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic
recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did
Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make
that analysis?

DanielB.Wheeler

General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten
pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already
knew
it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. I can't cite any early
publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for
example,
the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites
(knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History
Museum.
The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century
so
the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century
popular
astronomy (and geology) texts.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Your comment regarding the Widmanstaten diagrams or patterns is well
taken, Mike. The problem is that Elis Hughes knew nothing about them
until well after the meteorite had been taken from him. He identified
the stone as a meteorite, along with a miner named Dale, before a
meteorite expert was dispatched from the east to confirm the
identification.

I strongly suspect Elis Hughes knew it was a meteorite because another
meteorite, according to one account I found, fell in the Tigard
vicinity in 1900-01, and was subsequently displayed at the 1905 Lewis
& Clark World's Fair in Portland. Almost at the very end, the
Willamette was finally taken to the Fair and displayed for the last
few weeks of the exhibit.

But Elis found the meteorite in 1902. Moving the meteorite, a rather
heroic fete considering he used his son and one horse to move the 15
1/2 ton stone nearly 3/4 of a mile to his home, implies that he knew
absolutely that the stone was a meteorite before attempting to move
it. I would posit the only way Elis Hughes could have been positive of
his identification was because he had already seen another meteorite -
one which has since been lost to science. Other than a single
reference of a boy who supposedly witnessed the Tigard meteorite fall
almost 80 years later, I have found nothing about this stone. Of
course, the main building of the Lewis & Clark World's Fair, a massive
wooden log cabin structure, was burnt in a fire a few years after the
fair ended.

Another oddity: I am also tracing multiple fragments of meteorites
which fell in the Portland area 2-5 years before Hughes' discovery of
the Willamette. According to articles published about 1900, a large
bolide exploded several miles above the Columbia River near Scappoose,
and showered the area from Scappose to Tigard with multiple fragments.
Oddly, many of these fragments were later recovered. Why? A recent
snow storm had left some 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, and people
heard object hitting nearby, then found a hole in the snow (one if a
strawberry patch!) and found a blackish rock in the bottom of the
hole. But no one called them meteorites at the time. I believe they
were referred to only as fireballs. Although by the time they hit
earth they were not on fire at all. Many of these fragments were later
displayed in a downtown Portland department store window for some
time, before being donated to a local museum. That museum now has
hosted displays of part of the H.H.Nininger collection. But apparently
does not know they also may have multiple pieces of a more local
meteorite already in their collections.

The most interesting thing about historical research is ... many times
things get forgotten quickly.

DanielB.Wheeler

Interesting stuff! Aside from making a direct comparison, could he not
have
read about meteorites in books and even seen pictures? Most of the tests
described by you were known then and he would almost certainly have owned
a
compass.

The other Portland object was almost certainly a stony meteorite; irons do
not explode so easily.

The tests for meteorites were certainly known, but not in Oregon.
According to Ellis' own testimony and the subsequent trials here in
Oregon, where possession of the meteorite was first awarded to the
Oregon Iron and Steel Company, and subsequently to the Grand Ronde
Indians (representing the Clackamas Indians). But while Ellis seems
certain of his identification of the stone as a meteorite, there is
nothing else giving positive identification. Even the experts who
subsequently examined the stone waited until the samples taken were
etched before concluding the stone was a massive meteorite.

This bring up a completely different point: how did such a massive
meteorite make it through the atmosphere and landing impact (probably
somewhere in either Montana or Canada) without being broken/destroyed?
Yes, it is a form of stainless steel, which would have greater
resistance to impacts of any kind. But supposedly large meteorites are
destroyed largely by the effects of ablation through the atmosphere.

Obviously, this doesn't hold true in all cases! The South African
(Hoba?) meteorite is some 60 tons. Another meteorite I have a lead on
was much larger, possibly in the 90-120 tons range, making it the
largest such rock currently known in the world.

Still another point: meteoritic material is the source of all platinum-
group metals, according to my chemistry prof at Oregon State
University. Yet, there are a few places were platinum, osmium,
iridium, palladium, etc. are commercially found in quantities to
warrant their extraction alone. Typically they are extracted as a by-
product of gold, silver, or copper mining. No meteor has been found of
solid or near solid platinum (yeah, I know, that asteroid is largely
platinum). Question: Would platinum retain more of its mass through
the ablation process? Or would something largely platinum (say 40%)
still burn off as quickly, more quickly, or less quickly?

Daniel B. Wheeler

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MD:
The amount of platinum in meteorites is nowhere near 40%. Maybe 0.040%?
Probably less.

Iron meteorites are tough; hard to break up during entry. Stony ones are
usually more fragile. That's why irons usually survive more or less intact.

I'm wondering if Ellis was, um, telling a fib?


--
Mike Dworetsky

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