The moon, and Mars (or not?)

[Sorry for posting something that's not related to the election or politics
;-)]

From an article by David Prather of the Huntsville Times
--------------------------------------------------------
(http://www.al.com/search/index.ssf?/...0130.xml?hunts
villetimes?oedit)

"As noted in "New Moon Rising" by Frank Sietzen Jr. and Keith L. Cowing
(Apogee Books), which will be reviewed in Sunday's Times, Bush's message
focused on a return to the heavens, not a specific mission, not even about
going to Mars at all."

* * * * *

From a summary of the President's comments in January:
(http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=13412)
---------------------------------------------------------
"Third, America will return to the Moon as early as 2015 and no later than
2020 and use it as a stepping stone for more ambitious missions.
....
The experience and knowledge gained on the Moon will serve as a foundation
for human missions beyond the Moon, beginning with Mars."

* * * * *

It appears as though the Huntsville Times may be a little out of it. Has
anyone here read "New Moon Rising", yet? Is it your impression that Mars is
not a hoped-for destination as outlined in the Vision for Space Exploration?

Jon

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:58:33 -0500, in a place far, far away, "Jon
Berndt" made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

It appears as though the Huntsville Times may be a little out of it. Has
anyone here read "New Moon Rising", yet? Is it your impression that Mars is
not a hoped-for destination as outlined in the Vision for Space Exploration?

As is often the case, the situation is falsely presented as binary
(VSE=Mars vs VSE=Not Mars At All)

Certainly Mars is a destination, but it's not the only or ultimate
one, contrary to what many at the Mars Society (and parts of NASA)
would like to believe. The president actually mentioned it very
little in his speech, but he did mention it.

Jon Berndt wrote:
[Sorry for posting something that's not related to the election or politics
;-)]

From an article by David Prather of the Huntsville Times
--------------------------------------------------------
(http://www.al.com/search/index.ssf?/...0130.xml?hunts
villetimes?oedit)

"As noted in "New Moon Rising" by Frank Sietzen Jr. and Keith L. Cowing
(Apogee Books), which will be reviewed in Sunday's Times, Bush's message
focused on a return to the heavens, not a specific mission, not even about
going to Mars at all."

* * * * *

From a summary of the President's comments in January:
(http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=13412)
---------------------------------------------------------
"Third, America will return to the Moon as early as 2015 and no later than
2020 and use it as a stepping stone for more ambitious missions.
...
The experience and knowledge gained on the Moon will serve as a foundation
for human missions beyond the Moon, beginning with Mars."

When you read G W Bush, you should remind yourself that
what is said is exactly the contrary of what is being done.

The last manned flight of the old spaceships ended with a
catastrophe. Since then, the U.S. has not flown again and will
not do it again for a long time.

The head of NASA declares that the spaceships are too risky
to use, and the space scope is gone.

To mask this facts, a "proposal" is done, along the lines
set by his father, that proposed Mars, not only the
moon, more than 10 years ago. The timing is done so that
just after this "new direction" gesture, the scope is doomed.

To make the pill pass you make some empty gestures, but
nothing substantial comes out. The winds start blowing strong
in Cape Canaveral, it is hurricane season.

I may be wrong but I think there will be no U.S. manned
space flight for something like 10-20 years.

The infra-structure is gone. The teams and people that
built the spaceships aren't there any more. And their
work goes the same way that went the unused Saturn rocket:

To the humid air of Florida. A museum, something like that.

Scrap it.

Let's come back to the stand of sixties, when we just
managed to put a nose in the upper atmosphere. Instead of
a collective plan, done by the state, let's do a business
plan done by Paul Allen or some billionaire that has a few
millions to spend.

Forget about the real moon, the real spaceships that could
be built and let's end the whole in a great show, where
we start again from scratch. No space program, no collective
imagination. Just a small plane that manages with great
effort to sniff the vacuum for a few moments. This is not
a scalable design and will never be able to orbit and re-entry.

Who cares?

It gives a great show, and that is what the people want.
To be part of the show.

And George gives them a great show isn't it?

He said:
The experience and knowledge gained on the Moon will serve as a
foundation for human missions beyond the Moon, beginning with Mars.

Yes, of course.

He just forgot to mention that the humans will not be
U.S. citizens.

There are other humans that can build spaceships
they deem not too risky to fly.

The russians started this, with their first satellite and
with Youri Gagarin. They continued it with the MIR space
station.

They maintain the space station now, and they can invite
the chinese, once the U.S. is gone.

They never lost their space-faring capacity.

Brazil, Europe, and there will be others. The adventure has
got too much momentum to be stopped now. Humans have acquired
the certitude that it is possible.

At the end of the century, the majority of mankind will
live in space.

jacob navia Sep 20, 5:28 pm wrote:

I may be wrong but I think there will be no U.S.
manned space flight for something like 10-20 years.

The next manned shuttle flight, which will occur in 2005,
will prove that you are wrong.

The infra-structure is gone. The teams and people that built the
spaceships aren't there any more. And their work goes the same
way that went the unused Saturn rocket:

Tens of thousands who work at places like Decatur, Denver,
Huntington Beach, El Paso, Pueblo, Canoga Park, Stennis, Michoud,
West Palm Beach, Magna, Brigham City, etc., building new Delta,
Atlas, and shuttle hardware every day, would beg to differ.
- Ed Kyle

wrote:

Tens of thousands who work at places like Decatur, Denver,
Huntington Beach, El Paso, Pueblo, Canoga Park, Stennis, Michoud,
West Palm Beach, Magna, Brigham City, etc., building new Delta,
Atlas, and shuttle hardware every day, would beg to differ.
- Ed Kyle

Delta and Atlas aren't spaceships. They aren't human transportation
vehicles. I was referring to manned space flight. The U.S.
will go on doing satellites of course.

The shuttle crews are another thing, but the spaceships are
now (barely) maintained, no replacement for the old hardware
is in sight no new spaceships are being built.

Just promises of "the moon and beyond". Fact is, no new spaceships
are being built.

Maybe the old hardware will fly again, who knows, probably they will
fly them a few times until they fall out of the sky.

September 21, 2004

jacob navia wrote:

Delta and Atlas aren't spaceships. They aren't human transportation
vehicles. I was referring to manned space flight. The U.S.
will go on doing satellites of course.

But what most people don't realize, and especially NASA and Boeing fail
to realize, is that the Delta IV Medium is the first true spaceship,
fully hydrogen powered, and they have a brand new factory ready and
capable of manufacturing 18 units a year, and a brand new pad, plus a
spare site for expansion. At $75 million a copy, and with nearly 20,000
lb. to LEO, it is literally a steal, considering every launch to LEO or
the ISS give you an entire upper stage and engine to play with. It would
be almost trivial to man rate it, and upgrade it incrementally.

Just promises of "the moon and beyond". Fact is, no new spaceships
are being built.

The Delta IV Medium. Just two steps away from SSTO.

Closed Cycle Regenerative Propulsion and Tankage.

It's too bad human beings are such idjits.

Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:28:55 +0200, jacob navia
wrote:


The last manned flight of the old spaceships ended with a
catastrophe. Since then, the U.S. has not flown again and will
not do it again for a long time.

Huh? The U.S. achieved a manned spaceflight on June 21, 2004 and there
are plans for another manned spaceflight on September 29, 2004.

http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/

Brian

Brian Thorn wrote:


Huh? The U.S. achieved a manned spaceflight on June 21, 2004 and there
are plans for another manned spaceflight on September 29, 2004.

http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/

Brian

Hi Brian

Very clever. You are right. The U.S. WILL fly again of course. Using
russian spaceships and starting and arriving from Russia.

Of course *this* branch of the U.S. manned space program will expand!

Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
September 21, 2004

jacob navia wrote:

Delta and Atlas aren't spaceships. They aren't human transportation
vehicles. I was referring to manned space flight. The U.S.
will go on doing satellites of course.


But what most people don't realize, and especially NASA and Boeing fail
to realize, is that the Delta IV Medium is the first true spaceship,
fully hydrogen powered, and they have a brand new factory ready and
capable of manufacturing 18 units a year, and a brand new pad, plus a
spare site for expansion. At $75 million a copy, and with nearly 20,000
lb. to LEO, it is literally a steal, considering every launch to LEO or
the ISS give you an entire upper stage and engine to play with. It would
be almost trivial to man rate it, and upgrade it incrementally.


You are right, it wouldn't be difficult. But if it hasn't been done
is because the political will to do it is not there, that is what I am
arguing.


Just promises of "the moon and beyond". Fact is, no new spaceships
are being built.


The Delta IV Medium. Just two steps away from SSTO.

Closed Cycle Regenerative Propulsion and Tankage.


I do not doubt that the U.S. has the capcity to do spaceships. It is
just that it doesn't want to build them.

It's too bad human beings are such idjits.


Not *all* humans...



Thomas Lee Elifritz
http://elifritz.members.atlantic.net

I am sorry, I confused the "x prize" flights with the flights to the
ISS.

Excuse me

jacob