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Popping The Big Bang



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 15th 03, 02:11 PM
Chosp
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"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...

Any way- answer the post or shut up!


**** you, you ignorant troll.
Your post has been answered.
Learn some physics before attempting
to beat off in public.




  #12  
Old September 15th 03, 04:28 PM
Randy
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"Catherine Hampton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:46:33 GMT, Sam Wormley wrote:

Are you trolling Greenfield? There is no edge--everywhere is the center.


I doubt he's trolling. This is a misunderstanding I've bumped into among
non-science people time and again when they're trying to understand
space-time.

My experience is that the "mental map" most people have of space-time

isn't
too different from what Newton held, although (of course) nowhere near as
sophisticated. Most people are slaves to their mental images of reality;

they
might know, but don't really accept, that space-time as a whole can't be
painted and doesn't "look" like any picture their minds can build. It

takes a
non-trivial grasp of mathematics (well past the standard high school two

years
of Algebra, one year of Geometry, and perhaps one of Trigonometry) before

a
person has the mental tools to begin to understand just how strange the
universe is.

Isn't it wonderful? Not that so few people have those tools, but that at

least
some do?


It's wonderful if you have the tools, but it's *damned* frustrating when you
don't.

I *hate* not being able to understand stuff and I have to admit I just don't
get some (or maybe even most LOL) of modern cosmology.

Many questions, but no desire for ridicule. ;-)

--
-Randy (OF+)
'Up the stairs.
Into the fire.'




--
Catherine Hampton
Home Page * http://www.devsite.org/
The SpamBouncer * http://www.spambouncer.org/

(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)



  #13  
Old September 15th 03, 04:54 PM
CeeBee
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(Jim Greenfield) wrote in sci.astro:


Any way- answer the post or shut up!
Can a being at position 13.7 bly west of here, see one 13.7 east?
What do they observe when they 'look beyond'?
What are the dimensions of the universe?
What is it's age?
Has light from one side of the universe reached the other?
(Some people are afraid of the dark, and BBs and DHRs of 1/0 )



It is clear that _I_ am the center of the universe, as everything that
happens only seems to happen when I observe it. Until that moment it isn't
existent. This is very clear, as the Bing Bang theory was created because
the Earth seemed near the center of the universe, as you - obviously being
an expert on these matters - state, and I'm the center of my universe,
thus is my center the center of the universe.

Now answer _my_ questions:
what is happening to all those objects and people when I'm not observing
them?
Are they standing still, freezed, or do they simply cease to exist until
the next time I observe them?
In that case, how come some things get created exactly the same when I
change my position and observe them again?

And what about people stating that I lack some very basic knowledge about
the structure of reality, making my above questions utter nonsense, like
yours?

What about people suggesting you go troll somewhere else?

--
CeeBee


Uxbridge: "By God, sir, I've lost my leg!"
Wellington: "By God, sir, so you have!"


Google CeeBee @
www.geocities.com/ceebee_2

  #14  
Old September 15th 03, 06:32 PM
db
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Jim Greenfield wrote:

"J. Scott Miller" wrote in message ...
Thanks again for once again demonstrating how a lack of understanding of a
scientific theory allows one to make foolish statements in public. My
suggestion - get some knowledge and stop making stupid statements.



If you can't 'see' that the whole BBB's was proposed because the earth
'seemed' to be near the center of the universe, as every way we look
the red shift appears to show galaxies moving away, then YOU fit the
description!


if that is what you 'see', then you have misunderstood the bb theory.

How handy is it that 'space is expanding, taking matter with it'??


How handy is it that the speed of light is finite, so that as we look further
out in the universe we see it how it was longer back in the past.

what we see at 13B ly away is not the edge of the universe, what we see there is
how the universe was 13B years ago; relativly shortly after the BB.


--

And so it goes...
On The Brink...
Our lives like granuals of sand through the hourglass...
Do you know what time it is?
That's the question.
  #15  
Old September 15th 03, 07:00 PM
roy
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Jim Greenfield wrote:

With mounting conjecture that we 'are not alone' in the universe, it
might be timely to appreciate how truly fortunate WE are in viewing
the heavens.
Apparently we are close to the position of the 'singularity' from
which the universe sprung into being some 13.7 billion years ago,
and can see its glory in all directions.


We are not at the centre of the universe (as far as I know) but at
the centre of cosmological expansion. Each and every point in space
is by BB a place where expansion begins and thus at a centre of
cosmological expansion. Given enough time (i believe about 15bly)
then we (Earth) would indeed become a centre of our *observable*
universe since expansion velocity at 14-15 billion light years would
be greater than C and light from those distant objects could never
reach us.

Not so those poor souls at the extremities!


Our observable universe may only be analogous in size to the whole
universe as a speck is to our own observable universe. An object at
15 billion light years distant to us is in this way not really at
the edge of the universe but only at the edge of our visible universe.
What's at the true extremities of the universe which may be much
larger than our visible universe? Nothing. It's theoretically just
empty expanded spacetime. Thus there are no observers
sitting out on the true edge looking into the inky abyss (false
vacuum if it still exists at this time).

If as claimed, the edge of the universe is 13.7 bly
away,


That is estimated age of the universe. Who said it represented the
distance to the edge? It may turn out that at an age of 13.7bly we
are indeed at the centre of our observable universe by now. That is
not the same thing as being at the centre of the universe at large.

the total width becomes 27.4 bly, and so they are only able to
'see' as far as us (half of it).
AND this doesn't take into account the fact that the material of
their home has travelled out from "The Big Bang" for 13.7 billion
years (and that's allowing light speed for matter), and then
emmitted light back to us that is claimed to have also taken 13.7
billion years for the trip = light and mass travelling about the
universe for 27.4 by then, when it is only 13.7 to begin with!!


Anyone living at the edge of our observable universe has their own
observable universe of 13.7 billion years age and visible horizon
just like ours but of course they will see another vista.

So what do those beings see? Not us, as they are more light years
away than the earth's age, and certainly not behind us (in their
view), as we are at the 13.7 limit of their view. And what if they
look outward? Are they gazing into an inky abyss?


No, they may be looking at a rareified region of the universe.

Now aren't we just so privileged to live at the center of it all?
(And isn't 'The Big Bang' such an imaginitive load of rubbish??)


It's imaginative alright.



Jim Greenfield


  #16  
Old September 15th 03, 07:03 PM
George Dishman
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"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...

Any way- answer the post or shut up!


First things first:

What is it's age?


13.7 +/- 0.2 based on the WMAP probe measurements of the
CMBR:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/mr_age.html

See this site for info on WMAP:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/

and the CMBR:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html

Lets assume 13.701 for the sake of this discussion.

Can a being at position 13.7 bly west of here, see one 13.7 east?


(I assume "west" means in some arbitrary direction and "east"
means in the opposite direction. A being 13.7 billion light
years away is unlikely to share our definitions of east and
west.)

If we look 13.7 bly west, we might see a clump of hydrogen
and helium gas as it was 1 million years after the 'bang'
that would later become a galaxy. A being living there then
could only see 100 million light years in any direction
where they would see the CMBR that we measure, and within
that region they would see little more than clumps of gas
that would later become galaxies.

A being (called Jim) living in that galaxy 13.7 billion
years later could look east and see a clump of hydrogen
and helium gas as it was 1 million years after the 'bang'
that would later become our galaxy.

What do they observe when they 'look beyond'?


Jim would see the same as us, galaxies distributed evenly
throughout the whole region he could observe. If he looked
west he could see a patch of hydrogen and helium gas 13.7
bly away, as it was 1 million years after the 'bang', that
would later become a galaxy. That galaxy's light has not
yet reached us. A being (called Sheila) living in that
galaxy 13.7 billion years later would see the same as Jim
and us, galaxies distributed evenly throughout the whole
region she could observe. If she looked east, she would
see the patch of gas destined to become Jim's galaxy as
it was 1 million years after the 'bang', and if she
looked west, ...

What are the dimensions of the universe?


Very much bigger than the patch we can see, possibly
infinite. Imagine repeating the above series of beings
seeing clumps of gas that would become galaxies containing
other beings at least billions of times.

Has light from one side of the universe reached the other?


The universe doesn't have sides.

(Some people are afraid of the dark, and BBs and DHRs of 1/0 )


Some people are afraid of what they cannot comprehend. Some
people are afraid of what we see. We still see it and it is
still there whether anyone comprehends it or not.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm.html

George


  #17  
Old September 15th 03, 07:08 PM
Uncle Al
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Jim Greenfield wrote:

With mounting conjecture that we 'are not alone' in the universe, it
might be timely to appreciate how truly fortunate WE are in viewing
the heavens.


Bull**** meter quivers and it isn't even uncrated yet.

Apparently we are close to the position of the 'singularity' from
which the universe sprung into being some 13.7 billion years ago, and
can see its glory in all directions.


Bull****. Bull****! Your tongue isn't connected to yoru brain by
simple observation. Every point in the universe is at its exact
center *right now* and is equally distant from the Big Bang. As you
look into space you look back into time and *right now* isn't there
yet.

Not so those poor souls at the
extremities!


BULL****. Go out at night. Look at a far galaxy at one horizon and
than at another 180 degrees away. Theya aren't in each other's light
cones. Neither one exists as viewed by the other.

If as claimed, the edge of the universe is 13.7 bly away,
the total width becomes 27.4 bly, and so they are only able to 'see'
as far as us (half of it).


Bull****. You don't know anything about inflation or your light cone.
[snip]

(And isn't 'The Big Bang' such an imaginitive load of rubbish??)


Yeah, and cosmic background radiation and its power spectrum don't
exist, either. Idiot.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
  #18  
Old September 16th 03, 06:12 AM
Jim Greenfield
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Default Popping The Big Bang

"George Dishman" wrote in message ...
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...

First things first:


What is it's age?


13.7 +/- 0.2 based on the WMAP probe measurements of the
CMBR:
:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html

Lets assume 13.701 for the sake of this discussion.

Can a being at position 13.7 bly west of here, see one 13.7 east?


(I assume "west" means in some arbitrary direction and "east"
means in the opposite direction. A being 13.7 billion light
years away is unlikely to share our definitions of east and
west.)

If we look 13.7 bly west, we might see a clump of hydrogen
and helium gas as it was 1 million years after the 'bang'
that would later become a galaxy. A being living there then
could only see 100 million light years in any direction
where they would see the CMBR that we measure, and within
that region they would see little more than clumps of gas
that would later become galaxies.


Yes! That IS what we Should see, but photos of very distant galaxies
Don't show that. We Don't see 'clumps of gas', but galaxies which may
be similar to our own.
If they were 13 b years younger, one would expect them to look
different.

A being (called Jim) living in that galaxy 13.7 billion
years later could look east and see a clump of hydrogen
and helium gas as it was 1 million years after the 'bang'
that would later become our galaxy.

What do they observe when they 'look beyond'?


Jim would see the same as us, galaxies distributed evenly
throughout the whole region he could observe. If he looked
west he could see a patch of hydrogen and helium gas 13.7
bly away, as it was 1 million years after the 'bang', that
would later become a galaxy. That galaxy's light has not
yet reached us. A being (called Sheila) living in that
galaxy 13.7 billion years later would see the same as Jim
and us, galaxies distributed evenly throughout the whole
region she could observe. If she looked east, she would
see the patch of gas destined to become Jim's galaxy as
it was 1 million years after the 'bang', and if she
looked west, ...


STOP RIGHT HERE! Why didn't you elaborate?

What are the dimensions of the universe?


Very much bigger than the patch we can see, possibly
infinite. Imagine repeating the above series of beings
seeing clumps of gas that would become galaxies containing
other beings at least billions of times.


This is Exactly My Point! I to believe the universe to be infinite--
not constricted by the boundaries and limitations of some sudden past
singular event.

Has light from one side of the universe reached the other?


The universe doesn't have sides.


Sooner or later some Big Banger will go on about living on an
expanding 'membrane' similar to a balloon. That would represent the
sides I refer to here. I agree; there are no sides because the
dimensions are infinite.
George, the concepts of infinity and BB are oxymoronic and
incompatible.
Thanks for your reply
Jim G

(Some people are afraid of the dark, and BBs and DHRs of 1/0 )


Some people are afraid of what they cannot comprehend. Some
people are afraid of what we see. We still see it and it is
still there whether anyone comprehends it or not.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm.html

George

  #19  
Old September 16th 03, 06:31 AM
Bill Vajk
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Jim Greenfield wrote:

Sooner or later some Big Banger will go on about living on an
expanding 'membrane' similar to a balloon. That would represent the
sides I refer to here. I agree; there are no sides because the
dimensions are infinite.
George, the concepts of infinity and BB are oxymoronic and
incompatible.
Thanks for your reply
Jim G


There are many possible models to consider. Provide the
mathematical modeling for your preference, then we'll
talk.

  #20  
Old September 16th 03, 06:41 AM
Jim Greenfield
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\(formerly\)" dlzc1.cox@net wrote in message news:y8a9b.56231$Qy4.49289@fed1read05...
Dear Jim Greenfield:

"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...
...
Apparently we are close to the position of the 'singularity' from


http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo_01.htm

A good a place as any as to "what we see" means. Especially part 2.

David A. Smith


Hi! I had a look at your site, and got two immediate 'ears pricked'.
The first was a mention of positive and negative directions. I have
oft suggested that this concept is unacceptable in any arguement;
direction and distance are Always positive (may be "less than").

Second, and importantly, to maintain isotropy and homogeneity in an
expanding universe endows the closer to center galxies with some form
of telepathy! An expanding smoke cloud does not maintain homogeneity-
neither would an expanding universe! Simple geometry shows the outer
galaxies spreading faster, so the inner ones need a mechanism to
maintain an equal separation.....
("POP")

Jim G
 




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