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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.



 
 
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  #51  
Old July 6th 17, 09:33 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
David Mitchell[_3_]
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Posts: 32
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

wrote:
In sci.physics Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,

says...
Landing gear, and all other structural moving parts, is surely another
area on aircraft which could use this technology. Landing gear make up
a significant percentage of an aircraft's total dry mass, so this would
be a likely candidate for shape optimization and 3D printing.

Again, you are talking about niche applications and landing gear are not
that big a part of an aircrafts weight.


From Wikipedia (because I don't have time to look up a "better" source):

The undercarriage is typically 4-5% of the takeoff mass and can
even reach 7%.

That's significant in aerospace.

Have you ever looked at the interior structures of an aircraft?

Yes, many times. I've got a b.s. in aerospace engineering, so I know
the basics. Many of our customers are aerospace, so I have to
understand the domain.

3D printing is, and always will be, a niche manufacturing method.

Handy at times, but certainly not a world changer.

This is quite short sighted. I'm sure the same was said about
composites when they were in their infancy. Today it would be quite
hard (i.e. likely impossible) to point to something commercial that
flies and carries people commercially that has absolutely zero composite
content.

An irrelevant red herring to the subject of 3D printing. There are a HUGE
number of different composite materials out there and it has taken well
over half a century for most aircraft to have even a small fraction of
composite materials in their construction.

Note the word "most".


How is an example of the adoption of new materials/manufacturing
processes not applicable to 3D printing which is another example of the
same thing? Are you deliberately being intellectually dishonest?


Well, if you want to compare composite materials and 3D printing, composite
materials have been around for over a half century and the usage is still
trivial compared to traditional materials in just about all products other
than camper shells and ski boats.

So we can expect 3D printers to still be niche in 50 years.


Not really, 3D printing is capable of exponential growth once it reaches a
certain capability, composites aren't, and the parts we won't be fabricating for
a while, processors and storage, are subject to Moore's law.

  #53  
Old July 6th 17, 10:01 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Robert Clark[_5_]
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Posts: 245
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

Robert Clark wrote:
An article from 2015:

3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
4:48 p.m. EST November 12, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/


Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars,
but none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine.

This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with
its high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances.

But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact
considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the
home, an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size,
3D-printed car.
And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully
3D-printed automobile.

This would revolutionize the industry, obviously.

The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission.

* Transmission not needed; look at the Tesla.


This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor:

How to Make an Electric Motor at Home - YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2QTE26VOA

Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be
accomplished by 3D-printing.


* GACK! A DC motor with commutator! How gross.
The working part of the engine should be exactly like the armature
in the Tesla car: design is same as armature in an AC shaded pole fan
motor.
That design would not be too difficult for a 3Dprinter.

---



Do you have any references for how the Tesla car electric motor looks/works?

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

  #54  
Old July 6th 17, 10:10 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

An article from 2015:

3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY 4:48
p.m. EST November 12, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/

Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars, but
none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine.

This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with its
high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances.

But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact
considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the home,
an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size, 3D-printed
car.
And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully
3D-printed automobile.

This would revolutionize the industry, obviously.

The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission.

This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor:

How to Make an Electric Motor at Home - YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2QTE26VOA

Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be
accomplished by 3D-printing.


Bob Clark



Here's a description of the commercial, metal 3D-printers now in use:

Learn how 3d printing metal works – Top 3 ways! 02, 10 , 2016.
https://pinshape.com/blog/3d-printing-metal/

The first method described as "metal binder jetting" might be the easiest
one for amateurs to adapt to make a home metal 3D-printer. This method is
also the fastest as described he

Desktop Metal reveals how its 3D printers rapidly churn out metal objects.
Posted Apr 25, 2017 by Lora Kolodny (@lorakolodny)
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/25/de...metal-objects/

The metal "binder jetting method" for 3D metal printing is analogous to how
amateurs make plastic 3D parts so it should be something amateurs could
copy:

Desktop Metal Production System.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOCiRktuCo

The only complication is that it is a 3 step process: the part is 3D
printed, then put in a solvent bath to dissolve the binder, then finally put
in a high temperature oven to sinter the metal together.

However, the method itself probably is not patented since another company
Metal X is using the same process:

Solid Metal 3D Printing Under $100k - Markforged Metal X | CES 2017.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZkOuQUeaQ

Many amateurs working independently could come up with improvements to the
process.
For instance, is it possible to combine the metal deposition, dissolving the
binder, and sintering all into a single step?

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

  #55  
Old July 6th 17, 10:13 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

An article from 2015:

3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY 4:48
p.m. EST November 12, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/

Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars, but
none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine.

This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with its
high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances.

But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact
considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the home,
an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size, 3D-printed
car.
And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully
3D-printed automobile.

This would revolutionize the industry, obviously.

The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission.

This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor:

How to Make an Electric Motor at Home - YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2QTE26VOA

Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be
accomplished by 3D-printing.



The Desktop Metal Studio system is not meant for home use. But they do mean
for it to be used by engineers in an office setting to do rapid prototyping.

Their Desktop Metal Production system due out next year is intended for high
volume production. They claim a production rate of 8,200 cm3 per hour, which
they say rivals standard manufacturing techniques.

As described in their videos, this is for production of multiple copies of a
part by a machine with about a cubic foot operating volume:

Desktop Metal Production System.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUOCiRktuCo

However, it would seem the machine could be adapted to make a single part of
this size. That is, instead of making a hundred copies of a part a couple of
inches wide by using multiple jets performing identical deposition passes,
have these jets be separately, and independently directed to make different
portions of one part that is a foot wide.

Say, you wanted to make a steel engine within a machine operating volume 3
feet wide on a side. This would require 33 = 27 of the current machines (or
a single one scaled up this size.) Say, the engine weighed 270 kilos, that's
270,000 grams. Say the weight is equally distributed among the 27 machines,
so 270,000/27 = 10,000 grams for each machine.
The density of steel is about 8 gms/cm3. So that's 10,000/8 = 1,250 cm3.
This would then take 1,250/8,200 =.15 hours, or 9 minutes to make the
complete engine.

It's notable in this video the company's chief engineer says their system
could be scaled up to make an automobile chassis:

VIDEO: How Additive Manufacturing Can Produce Metal Parts en Masse. James
Anderton posted on June 06, 2017 |
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedM...-en-Masse.aspx

One imagines also, it could be scaled up to make the complete automobile.


Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--


  #56  
Old July 6th 17, 11:21 AM posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.space.policy
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Wednesday, 5 July 2017 01:04:14 UTC+1, Robert Clark wrote:

The largest of the professional, metal 3D-printers common now can
3D-print
parts about a foot across and cost about $250,000. So you can imagine a
3D-printer that can 3D-print parts, say, 10 feet across, would be 10^3 =
1,000 times larger in volume and mass, and perhaps a thousand times more
expensive, to $250 million.


Goods don't usually go up in price proportionally to volume.
And like anything in its infancy 3D printers are coming down in price
rapidly.

An expensive proposition. But if it can be shown a scale-model car can be
fully 3D-printed then it might be worthwhile for a large industrial
company
to invest in this when it would mean any car of any model could be
3D-printed on demand.

Bob Clark


Jay Leno already gets 3d printed car parts made for old machines with zero
spares availability. Custom cars might become a lot more popular in future,
who knows - if so 3d can do that. Whether it will ever compete with stamped
metal I've very little idea. We hear emotive arguments but nothing very
solid. At best we can say 3d printing is slow, whereas stamping & casting
are heavy, wasteful, shape restricted and require way more assembly time.


NT

---


With those price numbers I was referring to the price of the machine itself.
Likely, you could also accomplish the same thing by combining several of the
machines to 3D-print objects of a larger size, in which case the price of
the machines would be linear.

At least one other company is using this technique for doing 3D metal
printing:

Solid Metal 3D Printing Under $100k - Markforged Metal X | CES 2017.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZkOuQUeaQ

So this "binder jetting" method for metal 3D-printing probably is not
patented, though each company may patent their own individual design.

With applications of the process increasing, more companies will come into
the field, increasing the production of the machines and reducing the price.
Also, since this is a process that can be copied by amateurs more creativity
will come into the field possibly resulting in further reductions in cost of
the machines.

Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

  #57  
Old July 6th 17, 11:35 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 2,307
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In article ,
says...

wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:

Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet?

Yes. I do.

If any significant number of items in your house are fabricated, it makes sense
to use as few raw materials as possible, so, for example, it would make sense to
honeycomb the inside of a knife handle, since it would still be strong enough,
and would allow you to keep a gram or two of material "in the pot" for other
projects.

Ditto everything you make.


Nonsense; the items in one's house are based on price not how elegantly
it was produced.

It makes no sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle as it would
add no functionality and just increase the price.


What price?

It would reduce both the time to fabricate and feedstock used, albeit at the
cost of slightly more complex software.

They form the only metric which makes sense when talking about fabricating objects.

So, by that metric, they're cheaper.


Some people do like to buy exotic things. Some people even buy
expensive things thinking that if they cost more they *must* be better,
right? Hell, I know a few "foodies" who would likely buy "lightweight"
silverware just to have as a conversation piece at their next dinner
party.

My local Kroger carries a few knives with ceramic blades. One could ask
why of that as well, but they're there on the shelf. Someone must be
buying them since they've been around for several years.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #58  
Old July 6th 17, 01:35 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Robert Clark[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 245
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.



Say, you wanted to make a steel engine within a machine operating volume 3
feet wide on a side. This would require 33 = 27 of the current machines (or
a single one scaled up this size.) Say, the engine weighed 270 kilos,
that's 270,000 grams. Say the weight is equally distributed among the 27
machines,



The second sentence here should say:

"This would require 3^3 = 27 of the current machines (or a single one scaled
up this size.)"

Bob Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--

  #59  
Old July 6th 17, 05:34 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,346
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:

Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet?

Yes. I do.

If any significant number of items in your house are fabricated, it makes sense
to use as few raw materials as possible, so, for example, it would make sense to
honeycomb the inside of a knife handle, since it would still be strong enough,
and would allow you to keep a gram or two of material "in the pot" for other
projects.

Ditto everything you make.


Nonsense; the items in one's house are based on price not how elegantly
it was produced.

It makes no sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle as it would
add no functionality and just increase the price.


What price?


The manufacturing cost which increases the retail sales price at the store.

It would reduce both the time to fabricate and feedstock used, albeit at the
cost of slightly more complex software.


Or you could injection mold it, as most knife handles are, for a fraction
of the manufacturing cost of the honyecomb nonsense.

Or you could stamp the whole thing out of metal for a fraction of the cost
of the honyecomb nonsense.

They form the only metric which makes sense when talking about fabricating objects.


The only metric which makes sense for fabricating objects is the loaded
manufacturing cost.

So, by that metric, they're cheaper.


If an injection molded handle costs a fraction of a cent while the honeycomb
handle costs several cents, which is cheaper?


--
Jim Pennino
 




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