Great Griffin/ESAS Discussion At Space Politics

This is the kind of thing we used to do here before the trolls took
over.

http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/05...g-for-griffin/

Sorry, Henry, but Usenet really is dying. The interesting
conversation is happening on the web now.

On May 18, 7:52 am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
This is the kind of thing we used to do here before the trolls took
over.

http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/05...g-for-griffin/

Sorry, Henry, but Usenet really is dying. The interesting
conversation is happening on the web now.

Just read it, and it's excellent. I wonder who "anonymous" is.

Usenet isn't totally dead, but it sure has gone downhill since a
decade ago -- and the S/N was remarkably low even then. Oh, well, as
long as there's a searchable archive it's still useful as a filing
cabinet.

On 18 May 2007 06:46:46 -0700, in a place far, far away, Allen Thomson
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

On May 18, 7:52 am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
This is the kind of thing we used to do here before the trolls took
over.

http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/05...g-for-griffin/

Sorry, Henry, but Usenet really is dying. The interesting
conversation is happening on the web now.

Just read it, and it's excellent. I wonder who "anonymous" is.

Yes, many do. He (or she) is writing some of the most trenchant stuff
on space policy on the web right now, and (s)he only does it in
comments sections, mostly at Jeff's site.

Rand Simberg wrote:

This is the kind of thing we used to do here before the trolls took
over.

http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/05...g-for-griffin/

The moon program is over. Get used to it.

Sorry, Henry, but Usenet really is dying. The interesting
conversation is happening on the web now.

We have high technology, the trolls don't bother us at all anymore, and
there is no way in hell, unless they implement extreme moderation, that
they can stop anyone from posting anymore. Implement extreme moderation,
and what you end up with is NASASpaceFlight, or Unmannedspaceflight, dry
tasteless and uncreative ********s stalked by wannabee knowitalls/mods.

Just read it, and it's excellent. I wonder who "anonymous" is.

He's a ****ing crybaby. He a 'doing a heckava job, Alberto' kind of guy.

Yes, many do. He (or she) is writing some of the most trenchant stuff
on space policy on the web right now, and (s)he only does it in
comments sections, mostly at Jeff's site.

No, Plan B is the most cogent thing written yet. Rand can't read the
writing on the walls. The republicans and the neocons are finished.
Michael Griffin is finished. VSE and ESAS are finished. What these
****ing Paul and Anne Spudis types need to start doing is to look for
another space transportation system, and to start figuring out how to do
science remotely, like the rest of us have to do on a daily basis. It's
not as if meteors don't hit the moon on a daily basis now, do they.

--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html

"Allen Thomson" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 18, 7:52 am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
This is the kind of thing we used to do here before the trolls took
over.

http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/05...g-for-griffin/

Sorry, Henry, but Usenet really is dying. The interesting
conversation is happening on the web now.

Just read it, and it's excellent. I wonder who "anonymous" is.

Usenet isn't totally dead, but it sure has gone downhill since a
decade ago -- and the S/N was remarkably low even then. Oh, well, as
long as there's a searchable archive it's still useful as a filing
cabinet.

Much of what anonymous discusses has been discussed here before.

That said, anonymous seems to be well informed about what's going on with
VSE/ESAS/Ares/Orion and has put together some insightful observations about
the program. He's obviously a very good writer as well. It also helps that
he shares many of my views about VSE/ESAS/Ares/Orion. ;-)

Your typical sci.space troll is none of the above.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

Jeff Findley wrote:
"Allen Thomson" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 18, 7:52 am, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
This is the kind of thing we used to do here before the trolls took
over.

http://www.spacepolitics.com/2007/05...g-for-griffin/

Sorry, Henry, but Usenet really is dying. The interesting
conversation is happening on the web now.
Just read it, and it's excellent. I wonder who "anonymous" is.

Usenet isn't totally dead, but it sure has gone downhill since a
decade ago -- and the S/N was remarkably low even then. Oh, well, as
long as there's a searchable archive it's still useful as a filing
cabinet.

Much of what anonymous discusses has been discussed here before.

That said, anonymous seems to be well informed about what's going on with
VSE/ESAS/Ares/Orion and has put together some insightful observations about
the program. He's obviously a very good writer as well. It also helps that
he shares many of my views about VSE/ESAS/Ares/Orion. ;-)

Your typical sci.space troll is none of the above.

Even your average sci.space.policy advocate is smart enough to know that
VSE/ESAS/Ares/Orion is complete and utter bilge, and will be history
soon after January 20, 2009. We've got far more serious geological,
financial and political problems right here on the planet Earth, that
only a space program centered right here on the planet Earth can solve.

What anonymous is discussing is a dead horses head in the bedroom.

--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :
http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html

On May 18, 10:13 am, kT wrote:


No, Plan B is the most cogent thing written yet. Rand can't read the
writing on the walls. The republicans and the neocons are finished.
Michael Griffin is finished. VSE and ESAS are finished. What these
****ing Paul and Anne Spudis types need to start doing is to look for
another space transportation system, and to start figuring out how to do
science remotely, like the rest of us have to do on a daily basis. It's
not as if meteors don't hit the moon on a daily basis now, do they.

--
Get A Free Orbiter Space Flight Simulator :http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html

The problem is that most people in discussing the "return to the Moon"
need first to return to political reality. They act as if the last 6
years have not happened. Of that a guy who was/is suppose to be the
"conservative hope" hasnt been elected twice and governed...and run
the entire conservative "thing" into the ground.

I dont care what vehicles or baseline or timeline one uses, there is
no more money for human spaceflight, and there is no support outside
the "space is great" crowd to go back to the Moon.

Its dead Jim.

Robert

Allen Thomson wrote:
Just read it, and it's excellent. I wonder who "anonymous" is.

Usenet isn't totally dead, but it sure has gone downhill since a
decade ago -- and the S/N was remarkably low even then. Oh, well, as
long as there's a searchable archive it's still useful as a filing
cabinet.

That really was a good discussion.
I think one of the problems NASA has is that if you try to cut anything
at all, you've stepped on someone's toes, and they will take it to their
congressperson and get it reinstated. So NASA embodies the Peter
Principle; it's risen to the level of its own bureaucratic
iincompetence, and if you give it more money it just starts frittering
it away on more pork-barrel programs, so that it is in a perpetual state
of being underfunded no matter how much money is tossed at it.
It might be best to just let the thing die, and then start over with
something a lot more modest that only does a few things, but does them
well, sort of like going over to the old NACA model.
A lot of the "research" NASA funds is public works programs for industry
and academia plain and simple.
They had one guy I saw on television years ago who was studying Martian
life by skiing around in the California mountains while gathering up
snow samples. California isn't Mars by a long shot. You want him to get
some good data, send him to the summit of Mt. Erebus in antarctic
winter... that's a tad more like Mars...what he'd gotten was a taxpayer
financed ski vacation.
And what this dorky underwater habitat stuff is about is beyond me:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1215

Pat

On Fri, 18 May 2007 17:33:31 -0500, in a place far, far away, Pat
Flannery made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:



Allen Thomson wrote:
Just read it, and it's excellent. I wonder who "anonymous" is.

Usenet isn't totally dead, but it sure has gone downhill since a
decade ago -- and the S/N was remarkably low even then. Oh, well, as
long as there's a searchable archive it's still useful as a filing
cabinet.

That really was a good discussion.
I think one of the problems NASA has is that if you try to cut anything
at all, you've stepped on someone's toes, and they will take it to their
congressperson and get it reinstated. So NASA embodies the Peter
Principle; it's risen to the level of its own bureaucratic
iincompetence, and if you give it more money it just starts frittering
it away on more pork-barrel programs, so that it is in a perpetual state
of being underfunded no matter how much money is tossed at it.
It might be best to just let the thing die, and then start over with
something a lot more modest that only does a few things, but does them
well, sort of like going over to the old NACA model.

Gee, once in a while, Pat is capable of putting up a sane post.

Ares I is a dead stick for sure, (LOL). We need to use the EELV
systems for LEO. We also need to build a good heavy lift booster using
the existing work force, (That will keep the folks on the job, (and
give Us the Moon, NEA, and Mars programs needed to get the fire back
in the crowd)). As for the Money not being there, (Once the shuttle is
off the books, (We have the funding needed for future Human Space
Flight). If You want to bitch about the program, (Go ahead). Just make
sure You give options for Your view, of what We should do instead of
what the path is now. It is childish, (and shows major ignorance of
the real world), to say things are just so bad, (and funding so
short), that We need to just give up. Be proud of Your past, (and
support the future)!

Carl