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Illusory loops vs actual loops.



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 19th 18, 07:16 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default Illusory loops vs actual loops.

It does? The loops looked real to me!
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  #22  
Old May 20th 18, 11:23 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Illusory loops vs actual loops.

I take no offence from those who have no natural capacity to discern the long term actual loops of the faster moving planets closer to the Sun and especially Venus -


https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap060110.html

The approach of Venus to the slower moving Earth creates a composite narrative with the observed actual loop of the planet for those who don't set up conceptual obstacles for once seen it is impossible to ignore.

http://venus.aeronomie.be/multimedia...-geo-helio.gif


It is therefore something new to distinguish direct/retrogrades by perspective where the illusory loops of the slower moving planets are discerned from actual orbital loops of the faster moving planet. For me it is celebration of contemporary imaging, time lapse and graphics so no fault laid at the door of the original Sun centered astronomers who did their best with the less developed instruments at their disposal.



  #23  
Old May 20th 18, 02:31 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default Illusory loops vs actual loops.

On Saturday, May 19, 2018 at 9:33:19 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Unfortunately for Gerald, it shows illusory loops in the paths of Venus and
Mercury, showing that this thread is just him imagining he understands things
again.


The "illusory" loops sure look like Mercury and Venus going around the Sun,
which is what they "really" do.

What I'm getting here is that people are jumping on Oriel for his usual mistake:

that is, just as he says that the Moon doesn't rotate, and the Earth rotates
once very 24 hours, not every 23 hours and 56 minutes,

you're acting *as if* he had said that Mercury orbits the Sun, not once every 88
days, but instead once every 115.88 days.

He hasn't, yet, made that false assertion. Maybe you see this as implied by his
statements that the loops are real - if (he says that) they're due to Mercury's
real orbital motion around the Sun, then (he must mean that) they must be
_solely_ due to its real orbital motion around the Sun, without contamination
from our changing point of view on Earth.

Basically, I see Oriel as speaking in general, qualitative terms at this point:
and thus, what he has said so far is right. What he might say later may be
wrong. So my reaction is that for people to be pouncing on him in advance....
would risk confusing him more than he is confused already. If, that is, he
actually listened to anyone else, so I think we're safe.

The basic idea, that a planet's orbit as seen from the Earth is a circle with loops in it, but in the case of the superior planets, the overall circle is the result of the planet's orbit, and the loops reflect the Earth's motion, and thus are illusions... while in the case of the inferior planets, the overall circle is the result of the Earth's motion giving the Sun an apparent orbit around the Earth, while the loops are the effect of those planets' actual orbit around the Sun... is true and correct.

That Oriel claims this as a new insight peculiar to himself is, of course, a
mistake: but by reacting to his statement as though it were a mistake _confirms_
that belief, since if it was something that you knew all along, you wouldn't be
saying it was wrong!

John Savard
  #24  
Old May 21st 18, 01:55 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Illusory loops vs actual loops.

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap060110.html

Even though it is no surprise that nobody else seems to enjoy the spectacle where Venus shows those familiar size increasesbut the phase component negates the increase in luminosity to a large degree, Galileo marveled at this component seen from a slower moving Earth -

"But the telescope plainly shows us its horns to be as bounded and distinct as those of the moon, and they are seen to belong to a very large circle, in a ratio almost forty times as great as the same disc when it is beyond the sun, toward the end of its morning appearances.

SAGR. 0 Nicholas Copernicus, what a pleasure it would have been for you to see this part of your system confirmed by so clear an experiment!

SALV. Yes, but how much less would his sublime intellect be celebrated among the learned! For as I said before, we may see that with reason as his guide he resolutely continued to affirm what sensible experience seemed to contradict. I cannot get over my amazement that he was constantly willing to persist in saying that Venus might go around the sun and be more than six times as far from us at one time than at other times as at another, and still look always equal, when it should have appeared forty times larger." Galileo

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg


Celebrated among the learned indeed !, the learned have long since departed this world in astronomical matters for how else to account for the resolution of direct/retrograde motions by illusory loops for the slower moving planets further from the Sun than the Earth as opposed to the faster moving Venus and Mercury.


  #25  
Old May 21st 18, 01:59 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
[email protected]
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Default Illusory loops vs actual loops.

On Sunday, May 20, 2018 at 2:31:47 PM UTC+1, Quadibloc wrote:
What I'm getting here is that people are jumping on Oriel for his usual mistake


No, Gerald has some very specific mistakes in his head on this topic. He used to say things like:

Retrogrades of Venus take up its full motion from quadrature to quadrature when traveling in front of the Sun while it moves in the opposite direction against the stars when traveling behind the Sun.


He has learned not to use words like retrograde and quadrature which have specific meanings which he doesn't understand and gets wrong, which is why he now just says "Venus moves left and right of the Sun".

But if you read what he says, he still thinks it goes left and right like a moon of Jupiter. He does not grasp why it is in retrograde for less than 10% of the time, and he flat denies that the path of Venus across the stars includes little S shapes and closed loops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYYwNvjr7Lg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo8hImcsdhE
  #26  
Old May 22nd 18, 06:46 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris.B[_3_]
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Default Illusory loops vs actual loops.

On Monday, 21 May 2018 14:59:54 UTC+2, wrote:

But if you read what he says, he still thinks it goes left and right like a moon of Jupiter. He does not grasp why it is in retrograde for less than 10% of the time, and he flat denies that the path of Venus across the stars includes little S shapes and closed loops.



Sorry, you lost me at "little S-shapes."
Is that Newtonian or does it cough fall under General Relativity? ;-)
  #27  
Old May 26th 18, 06:48 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,294
Default Illusory loops vs actual loops.

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/150...peach_2504.jpg

Unlike the faster moving Venus, the slower moving Saturn doesn't show phases as the relative distance, size and period of our planet to Saturn's traits prevent anything only the occasional periodic shadow cast on the ring behind the planet.

The changes in the orientation of that planet's ring does change, not as an illusion as with direct/retrogrades loops seen from Earth but rather the change belongs to the planet itself as a function of the planet's orbital motion. Uranus too has equatorial rings which change their orientation to the Sun as a function of its orbital motion even though that planet is so much further from the Earth and the central Sun -

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...icture_big.jpg

It is a pleasure knowing what is illusory from what is actual, not only with direct/retrograde motions of the planet as seen from Earth but also individual traits of the planets themselves.

 




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