Tilt/Inclination and climate

On 23/12/2013 19:37, oriel36 wrote:
On Monday, December 23, 2013 7:11:00 PM UTC, OG wrote:
On 23/12/2013 09:02, oriel36 wrote:

On Monday, December 23, 2013 12:43:03 AM UTC, OG wrote:

On 20/12/2013 14:17, oriel36 wrote:



Regardless of differences in inclination,rotation and orbital



characteristics,all planets received the same budget of daylight

and



darkness over an orbital period however the degree of

inclination



determines how each planet receives that budget across

latitudes.







What does the word 'Regardless' mean in the above sentence?







Also, what exactly do you mean by "the budget of daylight and

darkness"?







To be precise; what do you calculate as "the budget of daylight

and



darkness" for the Earth for 2013 vs the "the budget of daylight

and



darkness" for Venus for one Venusian orbit



The Earth has a daylight/darkness budget of 24 hours divided into an

annual mean value of 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of

darkness.Were the Earth to have a zero inclination then all locations

would have roughly 12 hours of daylight followed by 12 hours of

darkness throughout an annual circuit and something akin to what

happens at the Equator all year round.Instead of the old 'no tilt/no

seasons',the description of an Equatorial climate is more productive

for zero inclination.



Were the Earth to have a maximum 90 degree inclination to the Sun

using the same 24 hour budget and the same mean value of 12 hours of

daylight/12 hours of darkness,all latitudes would experience that

budget entirely differently and much like they do in extreme

Northern/Southern latitudes where large areas of the planet would

have long periods of daylight followed by long periods of darkness.



The degree of inclination of a planet determines not only how rapidly

or gently areas of the planet transition from winter to summer but

how much of the surface experiences those swings.If the Earth had the

same rotational and orbital characteristics as it does now but with

the 82 degree inclination of Uranus then the swings would be huge

with little or no Spring/Fall conditions over large areas of the

planet with all the consequences for surface conditions.In this case

a polar climate does not mean it is necessarily colder,only that the

temperature budget for the planet and its mean annual value follows

the daylight/darkness budget and how it is experienced across

latitudes throughout the year.



If the modelers wish to do something productive then they can model

climate change by way of change in inclination using that 0 degree to

90 degree spectrum.Ultimately climate is defined astronomically and

then all the planetary surface traits can be applied as secondary

inputs.





You've not answered my question.

You want the word 'regardless' explained in respect to daylight/darkness budget for a planet over the course of a year based on inclination and it has already been dealt with in the two posts I sent.It also runs in tandem with a planetary temperature budget and how locations receive there allocation of solar radiation or lack of it over the course of a year.

If the Earth had a zero inclination or a 90 degree inclination it would have the same day/night and global temperature budget as it does now with its 23 1/2 degree inclination however with an 90 degree inclination and a polar climate it would experience temperature fluctuations in a much more extreme way than it does today.A global polar climate does not mean it is colder as the hemispherical swings in daylight/darkness would be more pronounced over large areas whereas a zero degree Equatorial climate would register no fluctuations of variations.

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg

The inclination of Uranus is fixed at 82 degrees to the ecliptic axis whereas the Earth has a 23 1/2 degree inclination and the polar coordinates turn in a circle around that ecliptic axis as a consequence of the orbital behavior of the Earth even if no time lapse footage exists to demonstrate this motions.Perhaps the Chinese will get around to it -

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/...mericas250.jpg

True climate change would occur within a spectrum and if the Earth's inclination were to increase it would acquire a more polar climate,if less then an equatorial climate.

For one post I thought I saw a flicker of recognition but with that reply that flicker went out.Go ahead and destroy the mind and spirit of humanity for in 80 years fossil fuels will not be an issue and you will have ruined climate studies and its connection to biological and geological evolution.When small minds get hold of a huge and complex topic like climate and render it into a peevish exercise in fear it can be a sight to behold.







What about venus though?

On Monday, December 23, 2013 7:40:43 PM UTC, OG wrote:
On 23/12/2013 19:37, oriel36 wrote:

On Monday, December 23, 2013 7:11:00 PM UTC, OG wrote:

On 23/12/2013 09:02, oriel36 wrote:



On Monday, December 23, 2013 12:43:03 AM UTC, OG wrote:



On 20/12/2013 14:17, oriel36 wrote:







Regardless of differences in inclination,rotation and orbital







characteristics,all planets received the same budget of daylight



and







darkness over an orbital period however the degree of



inclination







determines how each planet receives that budget across



latitudes.















What does the word 'Regardless' mean in the above sentence?















Also, what exactly do you mean by "the budget of daylight and



darkness"?















To be precise; what do you calculate as "the budget of daylight



and







darkness" for the Earth for 2013 vs the "the budget of daylight



and







darkness" for Venus for one Venusian orbit







The Earth has a daylight/darkness budget of 24 hours divided into an



annual mean value of 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of



darkness.Were the Earth to have a zero inclination then all locations



would have roughly 12 hours of daylight followed by 12 hours of



darkness throughout an annual circuit and something akin to what



happens at the Equator all year round.Instead of the old 'no tilt/no



seasons',the description of an Equatorial climate is more productive



for zero inclination.







Were the Earth to have a maximum 90 degree inclination to the Sun



using the same 24 hour budget and the same mean value of 12 hours of



daylight/12 hours of darkness,all latitudes would experience that



budget entirely differently and much like they do in extreme



Northern/Southern latitudes where large areas of the planet would



have long periods of daylight followed by long periods of darkness.







The degree of inclination of a planet determines not only how rapidly



or gently areas of the planet transition from winter to summer but



how much of the surface experiences those swings.If the Earth had the



same rotational and orbital characteristics as it does now but with



the 82 degree inclination of Uranus then the swings would be huge



with little or no Spring/Fall conditions over large areas of the



planet with all the consequences for surface conditions.In this case



a polar climate does not mean it is necessarily colder,only that the



temperature budget for the planet and its mean annual value follows



the daylight/darkness budget and how it is experienced across



latitudes throughout the year.







If the modelers wish to do something productive then they can model



climate change by way of change in inclination using that 0 degree to



90 degree spectrum.Ultimately climate is defined astronomically and



then all the planetary surface traits can be applied as secondary



inputs.











You've not answered my question.



You want the word 'regardless' explained in respect to daylight/darkness budget for a planet over the course of a year based on inclination and it has already been dealt with in the two posts I sent.It also runs in tandem with a planetary temperature budget and how locations receive there allocation of solar radiation or lack of it over the course of a year.



If the Earth had a zero inclination or a 90 degree inclination it would have the same day/night and global temperature budget as it does now with its 23 1/2 degree inclination however with an 90 degree inclination and a polar climate it would experience temperature fluctuations in a much more extreme way than it does today.A global polar climate does not mean it is colder as the hemispherical swings in daylight/darkness would be more pronounced over large areas whereas a zero degree Equatorial climate would register no fluctuations of variations.



http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg



The inclination of Uranus is fixed at 82 degrees to the ecliptic axis whereas the Earth has a 23 1/2 degree inclination and the polar coordinates turn in a circle around that ecliptic axis as a consequence of the orbital behavior of the Earth even if no time lapse footage exists to demonstrate this motions.Perhaps the Chinese will get around to it -



http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/...mericas250.jpg



True climate change would occur within a spectrum and if the Earth's inclination were to increase it would acquire a more polar climate,if less then an equatorial climate.



For one post I thought I saw a flicker of recognition but with that reply that flicker went out.Go ahead and destroy the mind and spirit of humanity for in 80 years fossil fuels will not be an issue and you will have ruined climate studies and its connection to biological and geological evolution.When small minds get hold of a huge and complex topic like climate and render it into a peevish exercise in fear it can be a sight to behold.















What about venus though?

Venus has little over a 2 degree inclination which corresponds to an Equatorial climate -

http://homepages.spa.umn.edu/~llrw/a..._obliquity.gif


A planet cannot have an inclination beyond 90 degrees hence I see what you were trying to do but then again the climate spectrum is suppose to appeal to those who truly get the point of zero inclination as an equatorial climate as opposed to the old 'no tilt/no seasons' ideology which is now unsuitable for 21st century purposes.

Keep on scaring the wider population with the exceptionally narrow view of climate and in a century there will be no terrestrial sciences left to research having painted yourselves into a corner and as many have discovered,it is close to impossible to research the past evolutionary history of the planet without variations in climate and whatever secondary inputs cause changes in weather at different latitudes.On the other hand global climate is defined astronomically and by the degree of inclination,all it takes are people who are not on the current bandwagon to see the bigger picture.

All planets process this following motion with respect to the central and through the circle of illumination over the course of an annual cycle hence the degree of inclination refers only to the ecliptic axis -

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...precession.svg

It can be seen to a 100% observational certainty and defines what type of climate a planet has -

http://www.newscientist.com/data/ima...2529-1_800.jpg

Breaking the idea of axial precession as it is presently understood is as difficult as demonstrating that the planet has two surface rotations to the central Sun,it shouldn't be but it is.

On 23/12/2013 19:57, oriel36 wrote:


Venus has little over a 2 degree inclination which corresponds to an
Equatorial climate -

How do you characterise an Equatorial climate?

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 11:47:30 AM UTC, OG wrote:
On 23/12/2013 19:57, oriel36 wrote:





Venus has little over a 2 degree inclination which corresponds to an

Equatorial climate -



How do you characterise an Equatorial climate?

The proper question is - how do I characterize an Equatorial climate with zero degree inclination from a polar climate with a 90 degree inclination ?.

It is ,happily,an open question.

Presently what they consider a 'no tilt/no seasons'perspective is really an Equatorial climate so readers are half way there. As a planet's inclination increases then they can consider what happens at different latitudes throughout an annual circuit.Were the Earth's inclination to move towards the Equatorial end of the spectrum its weather conditions would begin to lose the transition from summer to winter experienced over large areas of its surface whereas an increase in inclination would see a more pronounced and abrupt transition.

It is there for researchers to play around with once they get over their obsession with human control over the planet's temperature by way of fossil fuels.

oriel36 wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 11:47:30 AM UTC, OG wrote:
On 23/12/2013 19:57, oriel36 wrote:





Venus has little over a 2 degree inclination which corresponds to an

Equatorial climate -



How do you characterise an Equatorial climate?

The proper question is - how do I characterize an Equatorial climate with
zero degree inclination from a polar climate with a 90 degree inclination ?.

It is ,happily,an open question.

Presently what they consider a 'no tilt/no seasons'perspective is really
an Equatorial climate so readers are half way there. As a planet's
inclination increases then they can consider what happens at different
latitudes throughout an annual circuit.Were the Earth's inclination to
move towards the Equatorial end of the spectrum its weather conditions
would begin to lose the transition from summer to winter experienced over
large areas of its surface whereas an increase in inclination would see a
more pronounced and abrupt transition.

It is there for researchers to play around with once they get over their
obsession with human control over the planet's temperature by way of fossil fuels.

Perhaps you will enlighten us about Mercury's climate with its double
sunrises, double sunsets and stationary (almost) sun,

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 9:11:08 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 11:47:30 AM UTC, OG wrote:

On 23/12/2013 19:57, oriel36 wrote:











Venus has little over a 2 degree inclination which corresponds to an



Equatorial climate -







How do you characterise an Equatorial climate?



The proper question is - how do I characterize an Equatorial climate with

zero degree inclination from a polar climate with a 90 degree inclination ?.



It is ,happily,an open question.



Presently what they consider a 'no tilt/no seasons'perspective is really

an Equatorial climate so readers are half way there. As a planet's

inclination increases then they can consider what happens at different

latitudes throughout an annual circuit.Were the Earth's inclination to

move towards the Equatorial end of the spectrum its weather conditions

would begin to lose the transition from summer to winter experienced over

large areas of its surface whereas an increase in inclination would see a

more pronounced and abrupt transition.



It is there for researchers to play around with once they get over their

obsession with human control over the planet's temperature by way of fossil fuels.



Perhaps you will enlighten us about Mercury's climate with its double

sunrises, double sunsets and stationary (almost) sun,

Even though daily rotation drowns it out,all locations on Earth have two apparent sunrises and two apparent sunsets and that is what you are seeing in those images of Uranus as daily rotation runs South to North while the orbital sunrise/sunset runs East to West -

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg

What do you think causes the person at the North/South polar latitudes to experience a single day/night cycle if not a surface rotation to the central Sun ?.

Looking out the window at a winter storm out there this evening,people should be aware of the dynamics which make it so without having to be dragged into an explanation that has been constantly before them for quite a few years now.

The Earth doesn't tilt towards and away from the Sun Collins,if you take into account two surface rotations and subsequently two different types of apparent sunrises and sunsets you will get there eventually by way of the dynamics of the planet.

oriel36 wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 9:11:08 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 11:47:30 AM UTC, OG wrote:

On 23/12/2013 19:57, oriel36 wrote:











Venus has little over a 2 degree inclination which corresponds to an



Equatorial climate -







How do you characterise an Equatorial climate?



The proper question is - how do I characterize an Equatorial climate with

zero degree inclination from a polar climate with a 90 degree inclination ?.



It is ,happily,an open question.



Presently what they consider a 'no tilt/no seasons'perspective is really

an Equatorial climate so readers are half way there. As a planet's

inclination increases then they can consider what happens at different

latitudes throughout an annual circuit.Were the Earth's inclination to

move towards the Equatorial end of the spectrum its weather conditions

would begin to lose the transition from summer to winter experienced over

large areas of its surface whereas an increase in inclination would see a

more pronounced and abrupt transition.



It is there for researchers to play around with once they get over their

obsession with human control over the planet's temperature by way of fossil fuels.



Perhaps you will enlighten us about Mercury's climate with its double

sunrises, double sunsets and stationary (almost) sun,

Even though daily rotation drowns it out,all locations on Earth have two
apparent sunrises and two apparent sunsets and that is what you are
seeing in those images of Uranus as daily rotation runs South to North
while the orbital sunrise/sunset runs East to West -

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg

What do you think causes the person at the North/South polar latitudes to
experience a single day/night cycle if not a surface rotation to the central Sun ?.

Looking out the window at a winter storm out there this evening,people
should be aware of the dynamics which make it so without having to be
dragged into an explanation that has been constantly before them for quite a few years now.

The Earth doesn't tilt towards and away from the Sun Collins,if you take
into account two surface rotations and subsequently two different types
of apparent sunrises and sunsets you will get there eventually by way of
the dynamics of the planet.

Exactly. It doesn't tilt. It keeps pointing to the same pole star. Only
you invoke a tilting Earth. Your ridiculous explanation has a non existent
tilting to replace the two unrelated facts, The rotation of the Earth and
the Earth's orbit around the sun.

On 24/12/2013 13:38, oriel36 wrote:

Venus has little over a 2 degree inclination which corresponds to
an Equatorial climate -



How do you characterise an Equatorial climate?

The proper question is - how do I characterize an Equatorial climate
with zero degree inclination from a polar climate with a 90 degree
inclination ?.

It is ,happily,an open question.

Actually, you made the claim, so you need to answer it.

Presently what they consider a 'no tilt/no seasons'perspective is
really an Equatorial climate so readers are half way there.
So, what are the characteristics of a "no seasons" climate?

And is that what Venus has?


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On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 10:54:17 PM UTC, OG wrote:
On 24/12/2013 13:38, oriel36 wrote:



Venus has little over a 2 degree inclination which corresponds to

an Equatorial climate -







How do you characterise an Equatorial climate?



The proper question is - how do I characterize an Equatorial climate

with zero degree inclination from a polar climate with a 90 degree

inclination ?.



It is ,happily,an open question.



Actually, you made the claim, so you need to answer it.


Stated a fact son ,if you can't learn the difference and are unable to substitute the old 'no tilt/no seasons with an Equatorial climate then I can't help you further.

Maybe you are better off with the 'Sun crossing the celestial equator' explanation for the change in seasons as I enjoy the visual affirmation of what constitutes a zero inclination and a 90 degree inclination.




Presently what they consider a 'no tilt/no seasons'perspective is

really an Equatorial climate so readers are half way there.

So, what are the characteristics of a "no seasons" climate?


Jupiter has an Equatorial climate with its 3 degree inclination but perhaps you haven't that type of intelligence needed to figure out why the great storm has little orbital influences unlike the Earth's inclination which influences hurricane and typhoon seasons at different orbital points.

'No seasons' climate indeed !,I wouldn't have expected any different from the dullest and most anti-astronomical creatures ever to inhabit this great planet. If you can't work with the climate spectrum then perhaps you are better off with your 'tilting' Earth ideology.




And is that what Venus has?





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