NASA Back to Moon by 2018 - But WHY ?

Sander Vesik,
Why are you and so many others of your kind pretending at being such an
absolute moron of an idiot?

Rigid airships can easily take a 100 bar licking and they'll keep on
ticking. Although life as we know it can also take on such a 100 bar
environment. So, therefore nearly zero differential, and thus what's
your point?

Ever gone up and down in elevators?
Are you still alive and kicking at either end?

Just make it a very tall elevator and give yourself an hour or so per
bar. If the French can do it, then why can't you?

Brad Guth
~

Kurt Vonnegut would have to agree far beyond; WAR is WAR, thus "in war
there are no rules" - In fact, war has been the very reason of having
to deal with the likes of others that haven't been playing by whatever
rules, such as GW Bush.
Life upon Venus, a township w/Bridge & ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm

Jim Davis ) wrote:
: Eric Chomko wrote:

: No, like the explorers before us, we simply go.

: When are you planning to leave, Eric?

Why, do you want my chemistry set or baseball cards?

Eric

: Jim Davis

Sander Vesik ) wrote:
: In sci.space.policy Eric Chomko wrote:
: : In a dense atmosphere of CO2, ordinary water-steam would
: : be extremely boyant. A bit corrosive at 450C alas ... so
: : switch to any other low-MW liquid that boils below 450C.
: : Methanol perhaps ...
:
: 90 bars of atmospheric pressure?

: That is pressure at the *surface*. Something teh zeppelin need not get
: in touch with.

Okay, at what altitude above the surface of Venus will the zeppelin fly
and what will the atmospheric pressure be?

: : The 'zeppelin' idea isn't all THAT bad - kinda depends on
: : the surface winds however. A large crawler with semi-
: : autonomous guidance might be better. DARPA just finished
: : a trials race of FULLY autonomous vehicles and there
: : were a number of finishers. With terrestrial users offering
: : some direction, and resolution to complex issues, the
: : aforementioned crawler ought to do just fine.
:
: At what depth in the ocean is the eqivalent of 90 bars of pressure?
:
: : Alas, it would HAVE to be nuclear powered - keeping the
: : inner works cool would be a full-time job, refrigeration
: : consuming a fair amount of power (although good insulation
: : would cut down on that quite a bit). It would probably
: : require a two or three stage refrigeration unit, each using
: : different coolants, so the temperature in the final outside
: : radiators would exceed 450c and thus be cooled by the
: : atmosphere. Peltier devices could be used for the first
: : stage - eliminating that many moving parts (although using
: : more energy).
:
: Yet, NOTHING sent by man to Venus thus far has mananged to survive beyond
: 90 minutes.

: It has also been rather long since we last did and no doubt would do much
: better now.

I don't doubt that something will work. I just don't believe Brad's rigid
airship is it, though.

Eric

:
: Eric

: --
: Sander

: +++ Out of cheese error +++

Brad Guth ) wrote:
: Sander Vesik,
: Why are you and so many others of your kind pretending at being such an
: absolute moron of an idiot?

: Rigid airships can easily take a 100 bar licking and they'll keep on
: ticking. Although life as we know it can also take on such a 100 bar
: environment. So, therefore nearly zero differential, and thus what's
: your point?

And we have seen that where? You plan to build something that will hold
a gas lighter than dense C02 (easy), but will also be able to withstand 90
bars of pressure, and, 450C degrees?! Where?

Eric

: Ever gone up and down in elevators?
: Are you still alive and kicking at either end?

: Just make it a very tall elevator and give yourself an hour or so per
: bar. If the French can do it, then why can't you?

: Brad Guth
: ~

: Kurt Vonnegut would have to agree far beyond; WAR is WAR, thus "in war
: there are no rules" - In fact, war has been the very reason of having
: to deal with the likes of others that haven't been playing by whatever
: rules, such as GW Bush.
: Life upon Venus, a township w/Bridge & ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
: The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
: Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
: http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm

Eric Chomko,
I'm not the messenger from hell that's insisting my "rigid-airship"
notion is the one and only alternative to accomplishing Venus, as I
have always had a few other notions that do not include the prospects
of any rigid airship. However, a shuttle like rigid-airship (robotic or
manned) is most certainly something that's technically doable. If a
landing is to be required, at least there's no shortage of easily
available green/renewable energy for processing CO2--CO/O2, or for
extracting and processing just about any of the other available
elements. There are certainly many other existing proposals that should
work just fine and dandy but simply haven't been applied. Possibly
there's a spare secondary probe or two included within the Venus
EXPRESS mission that'll help a great deal with our learing of what's
potentially doable under those thick coluds, as for their next mission
that'll probably include something rigid-airship like.

I'm also not any wizard of an rigid-airship engineer, but those numbers
simply add up to what's doable and sustainable at even 811 K.

A mostly basalt composite of fibers and of sufficient layers of those
small/micro balloons having the sorts of high temperature tolerant
binders (possibly even along with a couple of plasma applied layers of
metallics involved) can amount to an extremely robust hull that's
offering R-1024/m worth of what that sort of airship shell that's not
having to weigh much greater than 130 kg/m3 can accomplish, which is
even all the more impressive once you've subtracted for the 65+kg/m3
worth of buoyancy and then given the 0.905 gravity factor is where even
a fairly massive airship that's loaded to the gills can in fact be
operated with just utilizing a partial vacuum instead of having to
displace portions of the interior with the perfectly safe and sane
option of H2.

Okay, at what altitude above the surface of Venus will the zeppelin
fly and what will the atmospheric pressure be?
I'm thinking of a relatively cool nighttime elevation of cruising along
at 25 km, where that bone-dry atmosphere is crystal clear, the pressure
is whatever the existing data has to stipulate (+/-10%). I believe at
50~55 km the pressure is somewhat close to 1 bar, and as such it's also
going to be relatively cool although perhaps getting things a bit into
the nighttime cloud bottom/haze zone which perhaps should be avoided
since it supposedly contains a good portion of sulphur and possibly
even having the S8 element as a saturated layer a bit further above
that. Otherwise, it should actually remain as relatively calm sailing
at 25 km and lo and behold, if the nighttime season conditions are
right is where this rigid-airship can become safely managed down to
something less than cruising along at 5 km off the geothermally hot and
nasty deck (at least there seems to be good portions of the Venus deck
that remain as geothermally alive and kicking).

I don't doubt that something will work. I just don't believe Brad's rigid
airship is it, though.
I must say that most folks of this usenet that sucks and blows seem to
have a firm mindset that absolutely NOTHING is going to work. Thus your
"I don't doubt that something will work" represents a rather huge step
in the right direction.

Remember that a robotic form of such a composite rigid-airship doesn't
have to worry about its DNA or whatever organs as having to adjust to
the pressure and thermal differentials, whereas just about any vapor
you can think of (including whatever's most humanly toxic) is going to
provide a degree of buoyancy via displacing that fairly high density
worth of all that toasty but otherwise clean CO2. The processing of
CO2--CO/O2 is certainly representing one of those options, whereas
extracting nighttime fluids from those nasty clouds should quite easily
derive all the necessary H2O and therefore creating H2 seems rather
doable. If necessary, you could damn near make these airships out of
iron and they'd still float at some point before hitting the deck.

BTW; why the heck do you suppose this Third Reich(Skull and Bones)
MI6/NSA~CIA and of all their warm and fuzzy GOOGLE/NOVA/NASA mainstream
status quo of their 'E-Men in BLACK' usenet that seriously brown-nose
sucks and blows big-time is still (no freaking lie folks) hard at work
delivering their best spermware into my PC?

Brad Guth
~

Kurt Vonnegut would have to agree; WAR is WAR, thus "in war there are
no rules" - In fact, war has been the very reason of having to deal
with the likes of others that haven't been playing by whatever rules,
such as GW Bush.
Life upon Venus, a township w/Bridge & ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm