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Venus and Jupiter



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 13th 17, 09:01 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 869
Default Venus and Jupiter

http://wwwcdn.skyandtelescope.com/wp...ember-2017.jpg

Saw this through the break in the clouds and it was as lovely as could be. Venus is moving in behind the central Sun and will transition to an twilight appearance once more whereas Jupiter will move back through the night.

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

While it is wonderful to predict the astronomical events like the sight of Venus and Jupiter in close proximity using a rotating celestial sphere, don't try to model the motions of the Earth, the other planets and solar system structure on that RA/Dec framework -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HAQk3dhsa0

So much more to enjoy once the future software program emerges that substracts the daily rotation of the planet and allows the planets,including our own, to travel freely in context of our motion and that of the central Sun along with the motions of the satellites of each planet around their parent.


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  #2  
Old November 14th 17, 01:51 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
[email protected]
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Posts: 280
Default Venus and Jupiter

On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 8:01:38 AM UTC, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
While it is wonderful to predict the astronomical events like the sight of Venus and Jupiter in close proximity using a rotating celestial sphere, don't try to model the motions of the Earth, the other planets and solar system structure on that RA/Dec framework


I would love to know how astronomers using the RA/Dec framework can predict (for example) transits of Venus across the face of the Sun out to the year 2500 if no-one in history except you has ever understood the motions of Venus relative to Earth and Sun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transi...uture_transits

If "the new software" is accurate, it will give exactly the same results. If it does not give the same results, it will be wrong.

Either way, pointless.
  #3  
Old November 14th 17, 11:36 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,725
Default Venus and Jupiter

Gerald Kelleher wrote:
http://wwwcdn.skyandtelescope.com/wp...ember-2017.jpg

Saw this through the break in the clouds and it was as lovely as could
be. Venus is moving in behind the central Sun and will transition to an
twilight appearance once more whereas Jupiter will move back through the night.

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

While it is wonderful to predict the astronomical events like the sight
of Venus and Jupiter in close proximity using a rotating celestial
sphere, don't try to model the motions of the Earth, the other planets
and solar system structure on that RA/Dec framework -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HAQk3dhsa0

So much more to enjoy once the future software program emerges that
substracts the daily rotation of the planet and allows the
planets,including our own, to travel freely in context of our motion and
that of the central Sun along with the motions of the satellites of each
planet around their parent.




Contrary to your belief RA and DEC are not used to calculate the positions
of the planets. The 6 Keplerian orbital elements are used for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_elements

In my 1980s software RA and DEC (and altitude and azimuth) were only
calculated once the relative positions of the planets in their orbits had
been calculated.
I have no reason to believe that modern software is different.


  #4  
Old November 16th 17, 11:01 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 869
Default Venus and Jupiter

Intuitive power is basically the ability to be inspired/inspiring so that there is nothing really complicated in fixing the motions of the planets to either the central Sun or a moving Earth through the ability to feel that something is right or works conceptually.

Despite all the machinations surrounding formalized academic opinions (theory), the ability to interpret motions is the more substantive side of astronomy rather than merely the diluted version of identification and magnification.

So, we see Venus run its circuit around its parent star much as we see the satellites of Jupiter run their circuits around their parent planet so with a number of tricky differences, all things can be put into perspective to a moving Earth as distinct from the slower moving outer planets -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZEgoJasPQ&t=11s

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

The outstanding issue is what role the Earth's slower orbital motion plays in respect to the faster moving inner planets and that requires the orderly transition from the stars from a twilight to a dawn appearance and minus any stellar circumpolar perspective.

  #5  
Old November 17th 17, 11:19 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,725
Default Venus and Jupiter

On Monday, 13 November 2017 08:01:38 UTC, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
http://wwwcdn.skyandtelescope.com/wp...ember-2017.jpg

Saw this through the break in the clouds and it was as lovely as could be.. Venus is moving in behind the central Sun and will transition to an twilight appearance once more whereas Jupiter will move back through the night.

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

While it is wonderful to predict the astronomical events like the sight of Venus and Jupiter in close proximity using a rotating celestial sphere, don't try to model the motions of the Earth, the other planets and solar system structure on that RA/Dec framework -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HAQk3dhsa0

So much more to enjoy once the future software program emerges that substracts the daily rotation of the planet and allows the planets,including our own, to travel freely in context of our motion and that of the central Sun along with the motions of the satellites of each planet around their parent.

  #6  
Old November 18th 17, 05:43 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 869
Default Venus and Jupiter

On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 10:20:01 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
On Monday, 13 November 2017 08:01:38 UTC, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
http://wwwcdn.skyandtelescope.com/wp...ember-2017.jpg

Saw this through the break in the clouds and it was as lovely as could be. Venus is moving in behind the central Sun and will transition to an twilight appearance once more whereas Jupiter will move back through the night..

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

While it is wonderful to predict the astronomical events like the sight of Venus and Jupiter in close proximity using a rotating celestial sphere, don't try to model the motions of the Earth, the other planets and solar system structure on that RA/Dec framework -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HAQk3dhsa0

So much more to enjoy once the future software program emerges that substracts the daily rotation of the planet and allows the planets,including our own, to travel freely in context of our motion and that of the central Sun along with the motions of the satellites of each planet around their parent.


Is this the sort of software you need?



No.

We can only see to the left and right of the stationary Sun during a total eclipse otherwise humanity references the motions of the faster moving Mercury and Venus after they enter the circle of illumination (dusk) or just as they exit it (dawn). The transition of the inner planets from right to left as they move behind the Sun or from left to right as they pass between the Earth and the Sun really has only one useful graphic to capture a stationary Sun and the looping motions of the inner planets -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The direct/retrogrades motions of the inner planets reflect an actual looping motion in comparison to the illusions of outer planetary direct/retrograde motion -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap160915.html


Proof of the Earth's orbital motion is tied up with the physical descriptions of the smaller actual loops of the inner planets. It requires that the background stars are actually seen to transition from a twilight to dawn appearance hence it is easily identified why the original Sun centered astronomers had so much trouble with Venus and Mercury using a moving Sun framework that you have in your Youtube graphic -


". . . the ancient hypotheses clearly fail to account for certain important matters. For example, they do not comprehend the causes of the numbers, extents and durations of the retrogradations and of their agreeing so well with the position and mean motion of the sun. "1596, Mysterium Cosmographicum

I could say that you at least got out of your rotating celestial sphere into which all motions are set but unfortunately you didn't -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1DqwC7lRpk

This is not a test but a project.







  #7  
Old November 18th 17, 06:20 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 2,570
Default Venus and Jupiter

On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 8:44:00 PM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1DqwC7lRpk


You should really view the video that follows this one, you could learn a lot!
  #8  
Old November 18th 17, 01:20 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,725
Default Venus and Jupiter

Gerald Kelleher wrote:
We can only see to the left and right of the stationary Sun during a
total eclipse otherwise humanity references the motions of the faster
moving Mercury and Venus after they enter the circle of illumination
(dusk) or just as they exit it (dawn).


No! Venus can be seen at noon on many cloudless days. The difficulty is
finding it and focussing on infinity in daytime. At noon you need to be in
shade. My yard (patio to Americans) is perfect for this since the house is
to the north. I haven’t yet seen Venus at local noon but I’ve seen it half
an hour from noon. There are two easy ways to find it in daylight. If Venus
rises before the sun just observe it every hour or so. Otherwise the best
way to follow it is on the days when it appears close to the moon. In hazy
British and Irish skies it’s often easier to find Venus with binoculars.
It’s then not too difficult to find Venus with the naked eye. Clouds in an
otherwise clear sky can be an aid to focusing on “infinity”.
Software which can give you altitude and azimuth is also useful as is a
goto telescope.
In better climates it’s much easier. Unfortunately when I was at Uluru the
sky was hazy. This didn’t affect the almost unbearable heat.
I had an acquaintance who successfully observed Sirius during the day in
Zimbabwe. You can easily find his observations on the internet.
  #9  
Old November 18th 17, 05:45 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 869
Default Venus and Jupiter

On Saturday, November 18, 2017 at 12:20:29 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
Gerald Kelleher wrote:
We can only see to the left and right of the stationary Sun during a
total eclipse otherwise humanity references the motions of the faster
moving Mercury and Venus after they enter the circle of illumination
(dusk) or just as they exit it (dawn).


No! Venus can be seen at noon on many cloudless days.


Good for you however the transition from the left to the right in front of the Sun and from right to left behind the Sun accounts for direct/retrograde motions and the graphics adequately express the loop of Venus and Mercury as they run their smaller and inner circuits -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

You have to be completely dull to ignore what is in front of you in terms of graphics or actual imaging show how the phases create the closed loop for Venus seen from a slower moving Earth -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

  #10  
Old November 19th 17, 04:17 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Scott M. Kozel[_2_]
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Posts: 113
Default Venus and Jupiter

On Saturday, November 18, 2017 at 7:20:29 AM UTC-5, Mike Collins wrote:
Gerald Kelleher wrote:
We can only see to the left and right of the stationary Sun during a
total eclipse otherwise humanity references the motions of the faster
moving Mercury and Venus after they enter the circle of illumination
(dusk) or just as they exit it (dawn).


No! Venus can be seen at noon on many cloudless days. The difficulty is
finding it and focussing on infinity in daytime. At noon you need to be in
shade. My yard (patio to Americans) is perfect for this since the house is
to the north. I haven’t yet seen Venus at local noon but I’ve seen it half
an hour from noon. There are two easy ways to find it in daylight. If Venus
rises before the sun just observe it every hour or so. Otherwise the best
way to follow it is on the days when it appears close to the moon. In hazy
British and Irish skies it’s often easier to find Venus with binoculars.
It’s then not too difficult to find Venus with the naked eye. Clouds in an
otherwise clear sky can be an aid to focusing on “infinity”.
Software which can give you altitude and azimuth is also useful as is a
goto telescope.
In better climates it’s much easier. Unfortunately when I was at Uluru the
sky was hazy. This didn’t affect the almost unbearable heat.
I had an acquaintance who successfully observed Sirius during the day in
Zimbabwe. You can easily find his observations on the internet.


I saw Venus and Jupiter very brightly in mid-daytime during the
total solar eclipse on August 21st. I will confess that by
about 40 minutes afterward I could no longer see either one,
even though I knew where to look.
 




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