"Big" Missile Launched from C-17

"Allen Thomson" wrote in news:1128087232.985432.127590
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


Damon Hill wrote:


Must be semisubmersible, to be able to load/unload something as
large as that...

That's right. They take on ballast until the main deck is several
meters underwater, the load is floated over it, and the ballast
is pumped out (carefully!).

See http://www.dockwise.com/?sid=25&project=81 for a general idea
of what is being contemplated for SBX and
http://www.dockwise.com/?sid=25 for other impressive pictures of heavy
lifting.


Okay, I remember seeing this before, took the
picture to job my memory.

Looks awful top-heavy, but judging from the number of
big jobs it's taken on it obviously works.

I guess 'Flounder' or 'Halibut' wasn't the right name for it,
but that's what popped into my head.

--Damon

Ed Kyle wrote:

This thing looks like it consisted of the first two
stages of a Minuteman, which would have weighed in at
more than 30 tonnes. They've been busy out there over
the Pacific horizon...

Yep. PDF page 18 of
http://ax.losangeles.af.mil/axf/eaapgs/docs/lraltea.pdf sez,

"The LRALT vehicle consists of a simulated reentry vehicle (SRV), a
guidance and control unit (GCU), an SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, an
interstage assembly, another SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, and an aft skirt
assembly. The target vehicle is 36 feet (ft) [11 meters (m)] long with
a maximum diameter of 5 ft (1.53 m), and weighs approximately 35,000
pounds (lbs) [15,876 kilograms (kg)]."

It would seem that the missile defense effort might
be creating some potentially useful space launch
infrastructure.

An interesting thought. Note that the GMD interceptors are
orbit-capable; if the EKV misses the target on some intercept
trajectories it will wind up in orbit.

Oops. Make that "nope." I was reading lbs as kgs. Mea culpa.

The LRALT uses two MM II second stages, not one 1st and one 2nd stage.

BTW, the document says in Figure 2-3 that the C-17 is a "Military cargo
aircraft with capability to extract 42,000 lb."



Allen Thomson wrote:

Ed Kyle wrote:

This thing looks like it consisted of the first two
stages of a Minuteman, which would have weighed in at
more than 30 tonnes. They've been busy out there over
the Pacific horizon...

Yep. PDF page 18 of
http://ax.losangeles.af.mil/axf/eaapgs/docs/lraltea.pdf sez,

"The LRALT vehicle consists of a simulated reentry vehicle (SRV), a
guidance and control unit (GCU), an SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, an
interstage assembly, another SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, and an aft skirt
assembly. The target vehicle is 36 feet (ft) [11 meters (m)] long with
a maximum diameter of 5 ft (1.53 m), and weighs approximately 35,000
pounds (lbs) [15,876 kilograms (kg)]."

Allen Thomson wrote:
Oops. Make that "nope." I was reading lbs as kgs. Mea culpa.

The LRALT uses two MM II second stages, not one 1st and one 2nd stage.

BTW, the document says in Figure 2-3 that the C-17 is a "Military cargo
aircraft with capability to extract 42,000 lb."

Thanks for the links, but this isn't the thing I was
pointing to. I was pointing to:

"http://www.crc.com/SRALT.htm"

This is the Short Range Air Launched Target (SRALT),
which looks heavier than the Long Range ALT. It
used (uses?) four parachutes, for example, and the
text calls it a "ballistic missile class target".

BTW, I guessed 16 tonnes for the LRALT. Your document
find says 15.876 tonnes. I am feeling rather pleased
with myself about my guessing skills right now, but
I'm sure to get shot down soon enough.

- Ed Kyle




Allen Thomson wrote:

Ed Kyle wrote:

This thing looks like it consisted of the first two
stages of a Minuteman, which would have weighed in at
more than 30 tonnes. They've been busy out there over
the Pacific horizon...

Yep. PDF page 18 of
http://ax.losangeles.af.mil/axf/eaapgs/docs/lraltea.pdf sez,

"The LRALT vehicle consists of a simulated reentry vehicle (SRV), a
guidance and control unit (GCU), an SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, an
interstage assembly, another SR19-AJ-1 rocket motor, and an aft skirt
assembly. The target vehicle is 36 feet (ft) [11 meters (m)] long with
a maximum diameter of 5 ft (1.53 m), and weighs approximately 35,000
pounds (lbs) [15,876 kilograms (kg)]."

Ed Kyle wrote:
Allen Thomson wrote:
Oops. Make that "nope." I was reading lbs as kgs. Mea culpa.

The LRALT uses two MM II second stages, not one 1st and one 2nd stage.

BTW, the document says in Figure 2-3 that the C-17 is a "Military cargo
aircraft with capability to extract 42,000 lb."

Thanks for the links, but this isn't the thing I was
pointing to. I was pointing to:

"http://www.crc.com/SRALT.htm"

This is the Short Range Air Launched Target (SRALT),
which looks heavier than the Long Range ALT. It
used (uses?) four parachutes, for example, and the
text calls it a "ballistic missile class target".

BTW, I guessed 16 tonnes for the LRALT. Your document
find says 15.876 tonnes. I am feeling rather pleased
with myself about my guessing skills right now, but
I'm sure to get shot down soon enough.

- Ed Kyle

And sure enough, it does look like I was wrong,
horribly wrong, about SRALT. It does use an
SR-19 (Minuteman II second stage) motor that
weighs in at about 7 tonnes.

"http://sanitarium.net/stuff/pics/sralt.jpg"
"http://space.skyrocket.de/index_frame.htm?http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_lau/sr19.htm"
"http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/sralt.html"
"http://sanitarium.net/stuff/pics/sralt.jpg"

- Ed Kyle

Allen Thomson wrote:


I initially thought the missile was a Castor-based Orbital
target vehicle, but apparently it was a L-3 Coleman Aerospace
Long Range Air Launch Target. I confess I'd never heard of it
befo http://www.crc.com/LRALT.htm


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050929/sfth071.html?.v=28



Yesh! That looks like some sort of SLBM.
It's two surplus Minutman II second stages mounted in tandem:
http://www.skyrocket.de/space/index_.../sr19_sr19.htm

Pat

Ed Kyle wrote:


It would seem that the missile defense effort might
be creating some potentially useful space launch
infrastructure.


It also might be creating something along the line of an air-launched
IRBM, ala Skybolt.
That target vehicle launcher is big enough that you could put a real
warhead on it with ease.
It could also be used for covert quick reaction small satellite launches.

Pat

Ed Kyle wrote:


It looks like they already did this almost, with
what looks to be the first two stages of a Minuteman
that would have weighed more than 30 tonnes.

"http://www.crc.com/SRALT.htm"




There appear to be two different versions- one, the second and third
stages of a Minuteman II (the one you referenced above), and a heavier
version comprising two second stages of a Minuteman II:
http://www.crc.com/imagesair/Lraltw_title.jpg
There are also a ground launched variants, some with added strap-on
solids:
http://www.skyrocket.de/space/index_.../sr19_sr19.htm
http://www.crc.com/imagesground/groundFLAT4.gif

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
Ed Kyle wrote:


It would seem that the missile defense effort might
be creating some potentially useful space launch
infrastructure.


It also might be creating something along the line of an air-launched
IRBM, ala Skybolt.
That target vehicle launcher is big enough that you could put a real
warhead on it with ease.
It could also be used for covert quick reaction small satellite launches.

How would such machines be used?

Hmmm. China launches a massive surprise missile
strike that destroys all of the U.S. ICBMs in
their silos. (They were right about missile
defense being easy to spoof). Simultaneously,
all of the U.S. missile boats are sunk by the
Chinese attack submarines that have been trailing
them for weeks. The few U.S. bomber bases are
easy pickings too. The U.S. is a radioactive ruin,
its population dead or dying. The China Century
is about to begin. But Peking doesn't notice the
half-dozen C-17s taking off from secret "grass
field" "Doomsday" bases on several continents.
One from Iraq. One from Afghanistan. One from
Japan. One from Alaska, or what's left of Alaska.
One from Ukraine. One from an uncharted Pacific
island, etc. These are one-way flights, but the
aircraft will be far beyond radar range when they
open their rear cargo doors ...

- Ed Kyle

Ed Kyle wrote:

s.



How would such machines be used?

Hmmm. China launches a massive surprise missile
strike that destroys all of the U.S. ICBMs in
their silos. (They were right about missile
defense being easy to spoof). Simultaneously,
all of the U.S. missile boats are sunk by the
Chinese attack submarines that have been trailing
them for weeks. The few U.S. bomber bases are
easy pickings too. The U.S. is a radioactive ruin,
its population dead or dying. The China Century
is about to begin. But Peking doesn't notice the
half-dozen C-17s taking off from secret "grass
field" "Doomsday" bases on several continents.
One from Iraq. One from Afghanistan. One from
Japan. One from Alaska, or what's left of Alaska.
One from Ukraine. One from an uncharted Pacific
island, etc. These are one-way flights, but the
aircraft will be far beyond radar range when they
open their rear cargo doors ...



They looked into this idea under Reagan, you know- they did the test
drop of the Minuteman out of the C-5.
As for tactics? Well, you could do a duzzy of a decapitating preemptive
strike with them, as you could attack from directions that the enemy
wouldn't be expecting, and the flight time can be very short. (I think
that was one of the things that killed Skybolt- it looked like a first
strike weapon, due to its short flight time.)
In the case of Skybolt, you could tell it was being carried as it has
hung under the wings; but in this case the C-17 carrying a missile and
one carrying a M-1 Abrams would look alike externally, which means they
could be deployed pretty much anywhere surreptitiously.
You could even make it look like someone else did the attack by having
its direction of approach be from an enemy state.
What it would be great for is a quick-response ASAT or reconsat
launcher, as the C-17 can fly to the desired bearing and position over
the ocean, and have the spent stages fall into the sea. You do a
direct-ascent ASAT attack with a soft-kill capability and you can nail a
enemy satellite while it's outside their tracking coverage and get
plausible deniability in regards to its destruction.
Here's an earlier take on the air-launch ASAT/recon concept:
http://www.up-ship.com/apr/extras/townhall.htm

Pat