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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
http://www.markshea.blogspot.com/200...74094513160 2 A reader writes: Hi Mark, I like Your publications very much,and always enjoy reading them.Well,I'm not srictly believer,nor I'm disbeliever.I just say: "anything is possible" (agnosticism?). Now,I'd like to point something,that probably not a lot of Christians and other religious persons think about. When disscussing eschatology,people usually refer to the end of sun,or(in far remote perspective) - to the end of the universe itself.And here I crossed A LOT of literature about this stuff,including not only comological predictions,but other possible developments as well.And these other developments,surprisingly,seem to be discussed much less,then end of the sun or the universe... Let me start from Owen Gingerich,professor emeritus of Astronomy,STRONG BELIEVER(as he describes himself).You might read the George Ellis's book "Far-Future Universe - Eschatology from cosmic perspective".There is Owen Gingerich's article with a very elegant caption: "Eschatology: Cosmic versus Human".I think,this caption speaks for itself.Before reading that article,I already had some knowlege about eschatological issues(Big Freeze,Big Crunch etc.).But Gingerich's article shaked me to the core,and made me rethink something.I give You 3 links ,all his articles: In all these articles he analyzes the possible future of our species,namely,Homo Sapiens.You might read these articles in detail,but I 'll put just few excerpts: I asked my friend Philip Morrison, an Institute Professor Emeritus at MIT and an astute observer of the scientific scene, about the prospects for Homo sapiens. "I would give it about 10 million years," he opined, and when I pressed him about the basis of his estimate, he replied that this was a typical lifetime for a complex species. I agreed that certainly the fossil record shows us that extinction is the name of the game, and there is no reasonable expectation that humankind would be exempt. Here we go: that extinction is the name of the game...no reasonable expectation that humankind would be exempt Interesting,that it's NOT coming from an evolutionistic atheist,but from Owen Gingerich...Furthermo While ten million years is a fleeting instant compared to the sun's projected future lifetime of five billion years, it does seem to me unreasonably long So to me it is unimaginable that Homo sapiens will still exist on earth ten million years from now, except perhaps by some remote chance in zoos or special preserves, a throwback much like Przewalski's horse. It is not astronomy that gives me this reading, nor even evolutionary biology and anthropology, but my reflections as a historian and philosopher of science. I believe it is neither pessimistic nor optimistic, but simply realistic. Our universe is going to go on for billions of years without us. Our temporal span is as fleeting as our spatial position is minuscule. "neither pessimistic nor optimistic, but simply realistic" "Our universe is going to go on for billions of years without us" If homo sapiens are still on earth 10 million years from now, it will be in zoos or special preserves, as throwbacks much like Przewalski's horse is today. Evolutionary biology and anthropology give me this reading, which is neither pessimistic nor optimistic, but realistic. Cosmological eschatology, with its timescale of many billions of years, is irrelevant when measured against any reasonable scenario of future human existence on earth or in the cosmos. This really made me think...Ok,earth have about 500 million years to support life...Homo Sapiens - 10 million years AT BEST ! Estimated lifetime of the Univers itself is(oh,boy)10^50 - 10^100 years...If that's true(and all data points out that our range could be between 50-100 years(overpopulation,earth resources depleeting,global warming,nuclear,artificial intelligence) to MAXIMUM 10 million...ok,I personnaly give it 200 miilion) So,what would pe a point of the Universe,that is "going to go on for billions of year without us", assuming it was created for us ? You stated,that G-d will interven to prevent the end of the universe...but when?When the Universe will begin to show clear signs of decay?But humanity will probably be gone for trillions of years then...Owen Gingerich is not alone.Here is Martin Rees: "There's an unthinking tendency to imagine that humans will be around in 6 billion years, watching the Sun flare up and die. But the forms of life and intelligence that have by then emerged would surely be as different from us as we are from a bacterium." Seth Shostak: Then what? Will the machines get rid of us? A machine that dwarfs our intelligence might regard us as we regard budgies or goldfish: diverting. Our role as second intellectual fiddle may be to serve as pets for the sentients in charge. All of this would be dismaying enough if it were merely a science fiction story. But I suspect that the first steps will be taken by mid-century. We could well be the last generation of humans to dominate Earth. I could continue,but I think that's enough.So,what is Your opinion.I used to read from religious folks,that scientists are ignorant,etc...or,that Bible is the only valid source of information,and that curious people don't have to read "unnecescary stuff"..(like Gingerich,Rees etc...But if for a moment we put asides all dogmas,don't You personally agree with Gingerich and Rees that eschatological timetables for humans and cosmos don't go together,and that if G-d would take care about coninuity of the human race,He would do "New Heaven,and New Earth" pretty soon?Or chances that overpoupulation and global warming will hit us very high.Besides,no species lasted more than few million years... I't would be interesting to hear from you something about that... Thanks for Your time, P.S. Do You believe in possibility of space colonization by humans?I personally doubt...Too many difficulties + outer space is biologically unwelcome...My be,by our "technological descendants"(what Frank Tipler and Hans Moravec suggest) There's a lot here, so let me take things one at a time. First, a clarifying point. Despite my otherwise typical Evangelical background, I came to the Catholic faith in the Second Coming quite late. Despite what some of my Darwinist interlocutors may think, the fact is that I drank in the enormous age of the universe and the basic evolutionary narrative with my mother's milk. It is profoundly native to me to think in precisely the terms you describe: Big Bang, enormous spans of time, eventual heat death of the cosmos, human history as a mere fly speck on the Great Wall of China that is the history of the cosmos, eventual heat death of the universe billions of years after homo sapiens has snuffed its brief candle of existence. Becoming Evangelical did nothing to mitigate that view, because the sect I happened to join had managed (quite anomalously) to reject the normal Christian belief in the Second Coming and the End of the World. I was taught instead that the baptism in the Holy Spirit and Pentecost were the "true" Second Coming and that the idea of Jesus returning on the Last Day was Christian fantasy. Not knowing any better, I accetped this--till I began to realize that this was simply not the Faith of the apostles, nor even of most Christians. So becoming Catholic required that I actually take a step toward a deeper faith in the Second Coming, not (as is typical) away from the thoroughly elaborated (and wrong) Left Behind scenarios to near and dear to many Protestants. Why mention all this? To give you your bearings and help you understand who you are asking about all this stuff. I've never had a big problem with the notion that the universe is not eternal and that we are most emphatically not eternal. St. Paul seemed to me to be speaking common sense when he says that the creation has been subjected to futility. Whether that futility takes thousands or billions of years to play out seems to me to be entirely beside the point. The fact is, none of us is getting out of here alive (though Scripture does say that some will be alive when the Lord returns). You write: "When disscussing eschatology,people usually refer to the end of sun,or(in far remote perspective) - to the end of the universe itself." Not that I'm aware of. When discussing *cosmology* they refer to these things. When discussing eschatology, they usually refer to the coming of Christ in glory on the Last Day, and to various supernatural and geopolitical events they expect to see. Gingerich's speculations about human extinction are, of course, just that. And I supposed he'd be right if we were not assured by revelation that Christ is returning to earth and will be seen by human beings both living and dead. What the details of that unthinkable event will be we do not know. The Church contents itself with "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. You ask: "So,what would pe a point of the Universe,that is "going to go on for billions of year without us", assuming it was created for us?" The universe was not created for us. It was created, as all things are, for the glory of God. We have been given the privileged position of being stewards and sons, but the whole works is still God's. It existed for billions of years without us and I see no reason why it can't exist for billions of years without us again. But then again, I also see no particular reason why, if he chooses, God could not bring this particular universe to an end in the next five seconds. He made the whole thing and it only continues to exist because God opts to hold it in being. The shocking message of the Second Coming is that God may very well choose to bring the wole thing to an abrupt end when it is time for us to enter the New Heavens and the new Earth. Or only real objection to that is an aesthetic one: the universe is really big and old, so for some reason it must go on being big and old all the way to the bitter end of heat death. But the fact is, the universe has no particular right to exist that trumps God's will. If he chooses to call a halt, the universe is gone. Space colonization: Ain't gonna happen. We will build a thriving metropolis in Antarctica before we build a modest sustainable colony on Mars. And Mars is about the limit of our spacefaring. We ain't *never* getting off the earth. And so will eventually die one of our favorite ersatz eschatons: the infinite proliferation of the human race throughout the cosmos. We'll stay right here and take our medicine till Christ returns. |
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
In article .com,
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote: Space colonization: Ain't gonna happen. We will build a thriving metropolis in Antarctica before we build a modest sustainable colony on Mars. And Mars is about the limit of our spacefaring. We ain't *never* getting off the earth. Nonsense. *You* ain't never, perhaps. Maybe not me either, though not for lack of trying. But to suppose that humanity will be forever Earthbound is just as ridiculous as supposing that Europeans, having developed ocean vessels, would never venture beyond Europe; or that heavier-than-air flight would forever be impossible. Space colonies have been technologically possible for several decades now. As time marches on, the cost of these technologies goes down, and the impetus for space settlement (i.e. the need for the vast resources of space) goes up. It won't be long now before the benefits outweigh the costs, and shortly thereafter, humanity will be like the proverbial genie out of the bottle. Best, - Joe |
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
In article .com,
Sound of Trumpet wrote: "anything is possible" (agnosticism?). Nope. That's just "gullible". -- Hal Heydt Albany, CA My dime, my opinions. |
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote in message oups.com... So the god character created the universe to toot its own horn? That's pathetic. -- Denis Loubet http://www.io.com/~dloubet |
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
Sound of Trumpet wrote: http://www.markshea.blogspot.com/200...74094513160 2 It must be a drag, having such a pathetic life that you have to post this crap to feel better about yourself. |
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
The universe is way over God's head.
-- Since I'm not under oath, anything I say could be inaccurate. Vlad the Impaler |
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
Wait, god did NOT create the universe now? Huh? If it was created for
his glory, that means someone else made for his glory. 3D Master -- ~~~~~ "I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!" - The Kurgan, Highlander "Give me some sugar, baby!" - Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness ~~~~~ Author of several stories, which can be found he http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/ |
#8
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
Any being that needs to create a whole universe just to have lesser
beings that can worship and glorify him is a pathetic loser that deserves pity, not glory. Sound of Trumpet wrote: http://www.markshea.blogspot.com/200...74094513160 2 A reader writes: Hi Mark, I like Your publications very much,and always enjoy reading them.Well,I'm not srictly believer,nor I'm disbeliever.I just say: "anything is possible" (agnosticism?). Now,I'd like to point something,that probably not a lot of Christians and other religious persons think about. When disscussing eschatology,people usually refer to the end of sun,or(in far remote perspective) - to the end of the universe itself.And here I crossed A LOT of literature about this stuff,including not only comological predictions,but other possible developments as well.And these other developments,surprisingly,seem to be discussed much less,then end of the sun or the universe... Let me start from Owen Gingerich,professor emeritus of Astronomy,STRONG BELIEVER(as he describes himself).You might read the George Ellis's book "Far-Future Universe - Eschatology from cosmic perspective".There is Owen Gingerich's article with a very elegant caption: "Eschatology: Cosmic versus Human".I think,this caption speaks for itself.Before reading that article,I already had some knowlege about eschatological issues(Big Freeze,Big Crunch etc.).But Gingerich's article shaked me to the core,and made me rethink something.I give You 3 links ,all his articles: In all these articles he analyzes the possible future of our species,namely,Homo Sapiens.You might read these articles in detail,but I 'll put just few excerpts: I asked my friend Philip Morrison, an Institute Professor Emeritus at MIT and an astute observer of the scientific scene, about the prospects for Homo sapiens. "I would give it about 10 million years," he opined, and when I pressed him about the basis of his estimate, he replied that this was a typical lifetime for a complex species. I agreed that certainly the fossil record shows us that extinction is the name of the game, and there is no reasonable expectation that humankind would be exempt. Here we go: that extinction is the name of the game...no reasonable expectation that humankind would be exempt Interesting,that it's NOT coming from an evolutionistic atheist,but from Owen Gingerich...Furthermo While ten million years is a fleeting instant compared to the sun's projected future lifetime of five billion years, it does seem to me unreasonably long So to me it is unimaginable that Homo sapiens will still exist on earth ten million years from now, except perhaps by some remote chance in zoos or special preserves, a throwback much like Przewalski's horse. It is not astronomy that gives me this reading, nor even evolutionary biology and anthropology, but my reflections as a historian and philosopher of science. I believe it is neither pessimistic nor optimistic, but simply realistic. Our universe is going to go on for billions of years without us. Our temporal span is as fleeting as our spatial position is minuscule. "neither pessimistic nor optimistic, but simply realistic" "Our universe is going to go on for billions of years without us" If homo sapiens are still on earth 10 million years from now, it will be in zoos or special preserves, as throwbacks much like Przewalski's horse is today. Evolutionary biology and anthropology give me this reading, which is neither pessimistic nor optimistic, but realistic. Cosmological eschatology, with its timescale of many billions of years, is irrelevant when measured against any reasonable scenario of future human existence on earth or in the cosmos. This really made me think...Ok,earth have about 500 million years to support life...Homo Sapiens - 10 million years AT BEST ! Estimated lifetime of the Univers itself is(oh,boy)10^50 - 10^100 years...If that's true(and all data points out that our range could be between 50-100 years(overpopulation,earth resources depleeting,global warming,nuclear,artificial intelligence) to MAXIMUM 10 million...ok,I personnaly give it 200 miilion) So,what would pe a point of the Universe,that is "going to go on for billions of year without us", assuming it was created for us ? You stated,that G-d will interven to prevent the end of the universe...but when?When the Universe will begin to show clear signs of decay?But humanity will probably be gone for trillions of years then...Owen Gingerich is not alone.Here is Martin Rees: "There's an unthinking tendency to imagine that humans will be around in 6 billion years, watching the Sun flare up and die. But the forms of life and intelligence that have by then emerged would surely be as different from us as we are from a bacterium." Seth Shostak: Then what? Will the machines get rid of us? A machine that dwarfs our intelligence might regard us as we regard budgies or goldfish: diverting. Our role as second intellectual fiddle may be to serve as pets for the sentients in charge. All of this would be dismaying enough if it were merely a science fiction story. But I suspect that the first steps will be taken by mid-century. We could well be the last generation of humans to dominate Earth. I could continue,but I think that's enough.So,what is Your opinion.I used to read from religious folks,that scientists are ignorant,etc...or,that Bible is the only valid source of information,and that curious people don't have to read "unnecescary stuff"..(like Gingerich,Rees etc...But if for a moment we put asides all dogmas,don't You personally agree with Gingerich and Rees that eschatological timetables for humans and cosmos don't go together,and that if G-d would take care about coninuity of the human race,He would do "New Heaven,and New Earth" pretty soon?Or chances that overpoupulation and global warming will hit us very high.Besides,no species lasted more than few million years... I't would be interesting to hear from you something about that... Thanks for Your time, P.S. Do You believe in possibility of space colonization by humans?I personally doubt...Too many difficulties + outer space is biologically unwelcome...My be,by our "technological descendants"(what Frank Tipler and Hans Moravec suggest) There's a lot here, so let me take things one at a time. First, a clarifying point. Despite my otherwise typical Evangelical background, I came to the Catholic faith in the Second Coming quite late. Despite what some of my Darwinist interlocutors may think, the fact is that I drank in the enormous age of the universe and the basic evolutionary narrative with my mother's milk. It is profoundly native to me to think in precisely the terms you describe: Big Bang, enormous spans of time, eventual heat death of the cosmos, human history as a mere fly speck on the Great Wall of China that is the history of the cosmos, eventual heat death of the universe billions of years after homo sapiens has snuffed its brief candle of existence. Becoming Evangelical did nothing to mitigate that view, because the sect I happened to join had managed (quite anomalously) to reject the normal Christian belief in the Second Coming and the End of the World. I was taught instead that the baptism in the Holy Spirit and Pentecost were the "true" Second Coming and that the idea of Jesus returning on the Last Day was Christian fantasy. Not knowing any better, I accetped this--till I began to realize that this was simply not the Faith of the apostles, nor even of most Christians. So becoming Catholic required that I actually take a step toward a deeper faith in the Second Coming, not (as is typical) away from the thoroughly elaborated (and wrong) Left Behind scenarios to near and dear to many Protestants. Why mention all this? To give you your bearings and help you understand who you are asking about all this stuff. I've never had a big problem with the notion that the universe is not eternal and that we are most emphatically not eternal. St. Paul seemed to me to be speaking common sense when he says that the creation has been subjected to futility. Whether that futility takes thousands or billions of years to play out seems to me to be entirely beside the point. The fact is, none of us is getting out of here alive (though Scripture does say that some will be alive when the Lord returns). You write: "When disscussing eschatology,people usually refer to the end of sun,or(in far remote perspective) - to the end of the universe itself." Not that I'm aware of. When discussing *cosmology* they refer to these things. When discussing eschatology, they usually refer to the coming of Christ in glory on the Last Day, and to various supernatural and geopolitical events they expect to see. Gingerich's speculations about human extinction are, of course, just that. And I supposed he'd be right if we were not assured by revelation that Christ is returning to earth and will be seen by human beings both living and dead. What the details of that unthinkable event will be we do not know. The Church contents itself with "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. You ask: "So,what would pe a point of the Universe,that is "going to go on for billions of year without us", assuming it was created for us?" The universe was not created for us. It was created, as all things are, for the glory of God. We have been given the privileged position of being stewards and sons, but the whole works is still God's. It existed for billions of years without us and I see no reason why it can't exist for billions of years without us again. But then again, I also see no particular reason why, if he chooses, God could not bring this particular universe to an end in the next five seconds. He made the whole thing and it only continues to exist because God opts to hold it in being. The shocking message of the Second Coming is that God may very well choose to bring the wole thing to an abrupt end when it is time for us to enter the New Heavens and the new Earth. Or only real objection to that is an aesthetic one: the universe is really big and old, so for some reason it must go on being big and old all the way to the bitter end of heat death. But the fact is, the universe has no particular right to exist that trumps God's will. If he chooses to call a halt, the universe is gone. Space colonization: Ain't gonna happen. We will build a thriving metropolis in Antarctica before we build a modest sustainable colony on Mars. And Mars is about the limit of our spacefaring. We ain't *never* getting off the earth. And so will eventually die one of our favorite ersatz eschatons: the infinite proliferation of the human race throughout the cosmos. We'll stay right here and take our medicine till Christ returns. |
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
No, no. It was created so that it would ultimately, after much work and refinement, produce *ME*. -- Sea Wasp /^\ ;;; Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/ |
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The Universe Was Created For The Glory Of God
What's so funny about peace, love and Sea Wasp
posting the following on Mon, 03 Jul 2006 22:42:13 GMT iin alt.atheism? No, no. It was created so that it would ultimately, after much work and refinement, produce *ME*. Nonsense. The universe was created so that beer could exist, and day baseball games exist so that we have a place to enjoy beer. -- Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5 Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011 "The belief in the Christian god... is an appalling nightmare. I reject the notion that the whole universe was created by this kind of evil creature who would create such a thing." - Anthony Flew, March 22, 2005 |
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