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Is the Moon Supposed to "Cartwheel"?



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 29th 20, 09:28 AM posted to alt.astronomy
R Kym Horsell[_2_]
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Posts: 111
Default Is the Moon Supposed to "Cartwheel"?

Daniel65 wrote:
R Kym Horsell wrote on 29/12/20 07:15:
Justin Tyme wrote:
On 12/28/2020 12:19 AM, Daniel65 wrote:
Justin Tyme wrote on 28/12/2020 2:01 am:
By cartwheel, I mean appear to rotate clockwise or counterclockwise
throughout the course of the night? Or, is is supposed to appear
stationary from a fixed point on earth?
A fair question is "Why don't you go outside and look?" My answer is
that I have and while the first few times the moon seemed to stay in
place, the last few times I have looked it had, indeed, appeared to
have rotated 45 degrees or so clockwise over the course of several hours.
I would think that the Moon's Axis always points in the same Galactic
direction as the Earth's Axis. Sort of!! Give or take!!
So, at Moonrise, the Moon's Axis would, effectively, be lieing on the
Earth's Eastern Horizon with the Moon's North Pole pointing towards the
North.
At Moon noon, the Moon's Axis would be directly overhead, with the
Moon's North Pole pointing towards the North.
At Moonset, the Moon's Axis would, effectively, be lieing on the Earth's
Western Horizon with the Moon's North Pole pointing towards the North.
So, let's say I'm in the midwestern US. And at the beginning of the
night the "face" of the moon is in one place: pretty much upright, a
little left of center, "eyes" toward the top. At 3am it's like the moon
is a dial, the eyes are way on the right side as I view it.
I'm just trying to get a handle on this. In the past I have not been
very observant, but I always thought the "face" was in the same place.

...
The horizon is not "horizontal" and verticals from the horizon
are not "vertical". If you judge whether some planet or constellation
is "spinning" by comparing it with the horizon to the East...to the
North....to the West you are misled.
E.g. Orion rises in the east and seems to be laying on one side.

Correct.
During the night it travels to the north and seems to be more or less
upright.

Certainly the case for me, here in the Southern Hemisphere, but, as
Orion is an "Equatorial" Constellation, if Justin is in (high) Northern
Hemisphere, wouldn't Orion seem to be moving across the Southern part of
his sky??




I'm a numbers guy.

What fraction of the Earth's surface would see Orion entirely in
the southern sky?

(a) 90%
(b) 50%
(c) 20%

  #12  
Old December 29th 20, 04:39 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Justin Tyme
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Is the Moon Supposed to "Cartwheel"?

On 12/28/2020 2:15 PM, R Kym Horsell wrote:
Justin Tyme wrote:
On 12/28/2020 12:19 AM, Daniel65 wrote:
Justin Tyme wrote on 28/12/2020 2:01 am:
By cartwheel, I mean appear to rotate clockwise or counterclockwise
throughout the course of the night? Or, is is supposed to appear
stationary from a fixed point on earth?

A fair question is "Why don't you go outside and look?" My answer is
that I have and while the first few times the moon seemed to stay in
place, the last few times I have looked it had, indeed, appeared to
have rotated 45 degrees or so clockwise over the course of several hours.

I would think that the Moon's Axis always points in the same Galactic
direction as the Earth's Axis. Sort of!! Give or take!!

So, at Moonrise, the Moon's Axis would, effectively, be lieing on the
Earth's Eastern Horizon with the Moon's North Pole pointing towards the
North.

At Moon noon, the Moon's Axis would be directly overhead, with the
Moon's North Pole pointing towards the North.

At Moonset, the Moon's Axis would, effectively, be lieing on the Earth's
Western Horizon with the Moon's North Pole pointing towards the North.


So, let's say I'm in the midwestern US. And at the beginning of the
night the "face" of the moon is in one place: pretty much upright, a
little left of center, "eyes" toward the top. At 3am it's like the moon
is a dial, the eyes are way on the right side as I view it.

I'm just trying to get a handle on this. In the past I have not been
very observant, but I always thought the "face" was in the same place.

...

The horizon is not "horizontal" and verticals from the horizon
are not "vertical". If you judge whether some planet or constellation
is "spinning" by comparing it with the horizon to the East...to the
North....to the West you are misled.

E.g. Orion rises in the east and seems to be laying on one side.
During the night it travels to the north and seems to be more or less
upright. When it sets in the west it seems to lay on the oppsites side.

Yet the universe is not spinning 15 deg per hour.

Unfortunately this topic is a long-time favorite of concern trolls.
When I started reading USENET in the 80s it was a thing.
I'm sure some of the people that made it popular back then
have web pages or youtubes dedicated to them by now.

So, is this fellow misleading us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA9J3IFsO_w

  #13  
Old December 29th 20, 09:50 PM posted to alt.astronomy
palsing[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,068
Default Is the Moon Supposed to "Cartwheel"?

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 12:26:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel65 wrote:
palsing wrote on 29/12/20 17:48:
On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:25:02 PM UTC-8, Daniel65 wrote:

The Half that you see above the Eastern Horizon at "Moonrise" isn't
the same half you see above the Western Horizon at "Moonset".


What? Of course it is the same half! It is just apparently rotated
somewhat... with emphasis on the "apparently".

Not counting librations, the moon only presents one face to the
Earth.

Hmm!! I would have thought at "Moonrise" you would see the 'western'
half of the moon first, whilst, at 'Moonset' you would see the 'eastern'
half of the moon last!!


Well, actually you have it backward. The "right" side of the moon in the sky is its eastern side and the "left" side is its western side. See this labeled map...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Moon_names.jpg

  #14  
Old December 30th 20, 05:22 AM posted to alt.astronomy
Daniel65
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default Is the Moon Supposed to "Cartwheel"?

palsing wrote on 30/12/20 07:50:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 12:26:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel65 wrote:
palsing wrote on 29/12/20 17:48:
On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:25:02 PM UTC-8, Daniel65 wrote:

The Half that you see above the Eastern Horizon at "Moonrise" isn't
the same half you see above the Western Horizon at "Moonset".

What? Of course it is the same half! It is just apparently rotated
somewhat... with emphasis on the "apparently".

Not counting librations, the moon only presents one face to the
Earth.

Hmm!! I would have thought at "Moonrise" you would see the 'western'
half of the moon first, whilst, at 'Moonset' you would see the 'eastern'
half of the moon last!!


Well, actually you have it backward. The "right" side of the moon in the sky is its eastern side and the "left" side is its western side. See this labeled map...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Moon_names.jpg

Ah!! Do you see, on the jpg that you linked to, on one side they have "E
(on moon) W (in sky)" and, on the other they have "W (on moon) E (in sky)"??

I'm guessing you and I are using the opposite references!!
--
Daniel
  #15  
Old December 30th 20, 05:37 AM posted to alt.astronomy
Daniel65
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default Is the Moon Supposed to "Cartwheel"?

R Kym Horsell wrote on 29/12/20 19:28:
Daniel65 wrote:
R Kym Horsell wrote on 29/12/20 07:15:
Justin Tyme wrote:
On 12/28/2020 12:19 AM, Daniel65 wrote:
Justin Tyme wrote on 28/12/2020 2:01 am:
By cartwheel, I mean appear to rotate clockwise or counterclockwise
throughout the course of the night? Or, is is supposed to appear
stationary from a fixed point on earth?
A fair question is "Why don't you go outside and look?" My answer is
that I have and while the first few times the moon seemed to stay in
place, the last few times I have looked it had, indeed, appeared to
have rotated 45 degrees or so clockwise over the course of several hours.
I would think that the Moon's Axis always points in the same Galactic
direction as the Earth's Axis. Sort of!! Give or take!!
So, at Moonrise, the Moon's Axis would, effectively, be lieing on the
Earth's Eastern Horizon with the Moon's North Pole pointing towards the
North.
At Moon noon, the Moon's Axis would be directly overhead, with the
Moon's North Pole pointing towards the North.
At Moonset, the Moon's Axis would, effectively, be lieing on the Earth's
Western Horizon with the Moon's North Pole pointing towards the North.
So, let's say I'm in the midwestern US. And at the beginning of the
night the "face" of the moon is in one place: pretty much upright, a
little left of center, "eyes" toward the top. At 3am it's like the moon
is a dial, the eyes are way on the right side as I view it.
I'm just trying to get a handle on this. In the past I have not been
very observant, but I always thought the "face" was in the same place.
...
The horizon is not "horizontal" and verticals from the horizon
are not "vertical". If you judge whether some planet or constellation
is "spinning" by comparing it with the horizon to the East...to the
North....to the West you are misled.
E.g. Orion rises in the east and seems to be laying on one side.

Correct.
During the night it travels to the north and seems to be more or less
upright.

Certainly the case for me, here in the Southern Hemisphere, but, as
Orion is an "Equatorial" Constellation, if Justin is in (high) Northern
Hemisphere, wouldn't Orion seem to be moving across the Southern part of
his sky??




I'm a numbers guy.

What fraction of the Earth's surface would see Orion entirely in
the southern sky?

(a) 90%
(b) 50%
(c) 20%

I seem to recall there being two "imaginary" lines on the Earth's
surface, "The Tropic of Cancer" and "The Tropic of Capricorn".

I'm guessing, if you were more northerly than the Tropic of Cancer
(approx 23.44 degrees N), you would seem to see Orion south of the sky
point above your head.

So that would mean somewhere greater 20% but less than 50%, maybe 35%'ish!!
--
Daniel
  #16  
Old December 31st 20, 12:32 AM posted to alt.astronomy
palsing[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,068
Default Is the Moon Supposed to "Cartwheel"?

On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 8:22:29 PM UTC-8, Daniel65 wrote:
palsing wrote on 30/12/20 07:50:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 12:26:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel65 wrote:
palsing wrote on 29/12/20 17:48:
On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:25:02 PM UTC-8, Daniel65 wrote:

The Half that you see above the Eastern Horizon at "Moonrise" isn't
the same half you see above the Western Horizon at "Moonset".

What? Of course it is the same half! It is just apparently rotated
somewhat... with emphasis on the "apparently".

Not counting librations, the moon only presents one face to the
Earth.

Hmm!! I would have thought at "Moonrise" you would see the 'western'
half of the moon first, whilst, at 'Moonset' you would see the 'eastern'
half of the moon last!!


Well, actually you have it backward. The "right" side of the moon in the sky is its eastern side and the "left" side is its western side. See this labeled map...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Moon_names.jpg

Ah!! Do you see, on the jpg that you linked to, on one side they have "E
(on moon) W (in sky)" and, on the other they have "W (on moon) E (in sky)"??


Of course I saw that. Those labels are the very reason I chose that particular graphic. Here is another image...

https://external-preview.redd.it/WW6...15469ffc7a0c6c

.... and the west coast of the USA is right over the west side of the moon, and east is over east. At least, this is true when viewing from the northern hemisphere and looking south. From Down Under you would need to flip the image over if you are facing north to see the moon.
  #17  
Old December 31st 20, 05:20 AM posted to alt.astronomy
Daniel65
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default Is the Moon Supposed to "Cartwheel"?

palsing wrote on 31/12/20 10:32:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 8:22:29 PM UTC-8, Daniel65 wrote:
palsing wrote on 30/12/20 07:50:
On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 at 12:26:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel65
wrote:
palsing wrote on 29/12/20 17:48:
On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 10:25:02 PM UTC-8, Daniel65
wrote:

The Half that you see above the Eastern Horizon at
"Moonrise" isn't the same half you see above the Western
Horizon at "Moonset".

What? Of course it is the same half! It is just apparently
rotated somewhat... with emphasis on the "apparently".

Not counting librations, the moon only presents one face to
the Earth.

Hmm!! I would have thought at "Moonrise" you would see the
'western' half of the moon first, whilst, at 'Moonset' you
would see the 'eastern' half of the moon last!!

Well, actually you have it backward. The "right" side of the moon
in the sky is its eastern side and the "left" side is its western
side. See this labeled map...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Moon_names.jpg

Ah!! Do you see, on the jpg that you linked to, on one side they have "E
(on moon) W (in sky)" and, on the other they have "W (on moon) E
(in sky)"??


Of course I saw that. Those labels are the very reason I chose that
particular graphic. Here is another image...

https://external-preview.redd.it/WW6...15469ffc7a0c6c

... and the west coast of the USA is right over the west side of the
moon, and east is over east. At least, this is true when viewing from
the northern hemisphere and looking south. From Down Under you would
need to flip the image over if you are facing north to see the moon.

NOW you've really got me confused!!
--
Daniel
 




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