"Mars Water" - The NASA PAO in action

This annoyed me so much, that I thought it deserves a separate thread
due to its implications in regards to the NASA PAO:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ma...-20061206.html
This isn't the first time we've heard the "water flowing on Mars" story.
Back in 2000, NASA was showing pictures of gullies in craters taken by
Mars Global Surveyor and saying they were caused by liquid water flows:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/sp....03/index.html
Then afterwards, dissenting voices arose to this interpretation:
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-...ence-00k2.html
http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0402013.htm
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-...ience-02b.html
But Mars Global Surveyor has now croaked, and as a going away present,
NASA has given it credit for finding the same thing again:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=21407
Even though in all likelihood all it's found are dry ice or soil
deposits from subsurface liquid CO2 escaping.
Notice how liquid CO2 doesn't even get mentioned in the press release?
Notice how the new "water" flows are still coming out from deep
underground on crater walls...where liquid CO2 could exist?
And at latitudes above 30 degrees, where liquid water would have a
harder time existing than at the warmer Martian equator?

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
This annoyed me so much, that I thought it deserves a separate thread
due to its implications in regards to the NASA PAO

Pat,

Neither Ed Weiler nor Mike Malin, who were prominently quoted in the
2000 piece, are members of the PAO.

--
Dave Michelson

Dave Michelson wrote:

Pat Flannery wrote:

This annoyed me so much, that I thought it deserves a separate thread
due to its implications in regards to the NASA PAO


Pat,

Neither Ed Weiler nor Mike Malin, who were prominently quoted in the
2000 piece, are members of the PAO.

No, that's not what concerns me.
What concerns me is that NASA is doing two things:

1.) Backing a big deal about this "new" discovery in their latest press
release, and making no reference to the 2000 release on the same
subject. The only "new" thing here was photographic proof of the
phenomena occurring in the past seven years, not the phenomena itself.
And the 2000 press release stated they thought this was an on-going
process.

2.) Completely ignoring the dissenting views about their interpretation
of the formation process for the gullies put forward in the 2000 press
release.

That's not how science is supposed to work; they should have at least
stated in the new press release that there is an alternative to water
that could also explain this phenomena, and particularly given the high
latitudes and low temperatures of where these flows were found, probably
fits them far better than water - which requires some sort of unknown
brine solution or subsurface heating to keep it liquid at the observed
temperatures.
If it's a brine, I'd like to see it reproduced in a laboratory; as it
might be the best, most ecologically friendly antifreeze ever made.
If there is some sort of subsurface heating going on, it's odd it mainly
confines itself to only those regions above 30 degrees latitude. You'd
expect it to vary by geology and terrain, not by latitude.
It's also odd that only a few months back, NASA was jumping up and down
regarding subsurface CO2 eruptions at the Martian pole blasting huge
pits in the ground every spring, yet seems to think that CO2 plays no
possible part in this new phenomena.
I think it is no coincidence that the mean temperature of Mars (-63 C),
the melting point of solid carbon dioxide under pressure (-57 C), and
its sublimation point in vacuum (-78 C) are all within 20 C of each
other, with the liquid under pressure and sublimation temperatures in
vacuum neatly straddling the mean temperature of Mars.
This planet was _made_ for carbon dioxide in gaseous, liquid, and solid
forms.

Pat

"kT" wrote in message


Notice how liquid CO2 doesn't even get mentioned in the press release?
Notice how the new "water" flows are still coming out from deep
underground on crater walls...where liquid CO2 could exist?
And at latitudes above 30 degrees, where liquid water would have a
harder time existing than at the warmer Martian equator?

Yawn. Another usenet crackpot. I agree, NASA is grandstanding again.

But the CO2 theory is dead, crackpot. Get over it.

There should be a little water on Mars, perhaps 0.1% of what's otherwise
mostly dry ice could be that of plain old h2o.

What's the Mars core temperature?

If it isn't so old and thus frozen to the core, chances are that
sequested water or brines containing h2o should coexist underground.
There could even be a co2/h2o composite of icy dry ice, just not upon
the near vacuum of that Mars surface.

How much tonnage of dry ice is there to behold?

After all, 0.1% is still a great amount of potential h2o.
-
Brad Guth


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Pat Flannery wrote:
This annoyed me so much, that I thought it deserves a separate thread
due to its implications in regards to the NASA PAO:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ma...-20061206.html
This isn't the first time we've heard the "water flowing on Mars" story.
Back in 2000, NASA was showing pictures of gullies in craters taken by
Mars Global Surveyor and saying they were caused by liquid water flows:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/sp....03/index.html
Then afterwards, dissenting voices arose to this interpretation:
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-...ence-00k2.html
http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0402013.htm
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-...ience-02b.html
But Mars Global Surveyor has now croaked, and as a going away present,
NASA has given it credit for finding the same thing again:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=21407
Even though in all likelihood all it's found are dry ice or soil
deposits from subsurface liquid CO2 escaping.

Oh, give us a break, crackpot.

Nick Hoffman is a complete fraud.

Notice how liquid CO2 doesn't even get mentioned in the press release?
Notice how the new "water" flows are still coming out from deep
underground on crater walls...where liquid CO2 could exist?
And at latitudes above 30 degrees, where liquid water would have a
harder time existing than at the warmer Martian equator?

Yawn. Another usenet crackpot. I agree, NASA is grandstanding again.

But the CO2 theory is dead, crackpot. Get over it.

http://cosmic.lifeformorg

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...
This annoyed me so much, that I thought it deserves a separate thread
due to its implications in regards to the NASA PAO:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ma...-20061206.html


I've been keeping up with the recent water flow on Mars topic
since Opportunity landed. And it appears all the geological
evidence shows a planet that has had extensive underground
water/ice. Which should periodically flow to the surface as
ice ages wax and wane. One observation I found some time
ago convinced me that even today water finds a way here
and there to bubble up. Look carefully at these two pictures below.
Especially the delicate /erosion pattern/ seen in the.....shadows...
of each picture. They both show a mudpot and the characteristic
soil erosion along the edge of the mudpot. The mars pic is
on the Endurance crater wall about half way down, so it's at
about a ten degree slope causing the mudpot to be elongated
and shallow. But it's still a mudpot

Look at the shadows, this is water erosion. And considering
the delicate nature of the erosion, and the weather on
Mars, this is ....recent water erosion imho.

Yellowstone mudpot
http://www.nps.gov/yell/slidefile/th...ages/05402.jpg
Endurance mudpot
http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/opp...1P2397R1M1.JPG

I think the evidence will show the Mars water didn't evaporate into space
so much as going underground. Most of it could still be there.
And the research shows only twenty or thirty meters underground
should be enough to protect and store water ice near the equator.

Mars could conceivably have large swings in temperatures as ice
ages wax and wane due to its complicated orbit. Mars could warm
considerably in a short time and water could fill in canyons and
craters all over.




Even with the current conditions in the atmosphere, ice capped
lakes could exist in the surface of Mars today since they're
replenished from underground. Underground springs would
replenish the lakes faster than the ice cover would ablate
away.

I've seen counltess crater and canyons with unusual dunes
on the bottom exactly outlining where water would stand.
And these dunes look exactly like water ripples. Look
at the unusual dunes at the bottom of Endurance and
Victoria.

Look at this canyon. The dunes go around corners, obviously
not following the prevailing wind. And also exactly outlining
where water would stand if water were there. These are
obviously water ripples, which look almost exactly like
wind ripples. I think many dunes that appear wind formed
are actually water formed. The two types are virtually
identicle.

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/gall...Nirgal_i2.html


A few more floor dunes
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/11/05/
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/10/30/
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/10/05/
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/.../18/index.html


And look at this incredible pic. A valley with dark Meridiani
like soil exactly outlining where water would stand if it
were there. And even a dust devil in the pic showing the
dunes or furrows are cemented in place.
http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/gall.../PIA02398.html




This isn't the first time we've heard the "water flowing on Mars" story.
Back in 2000, NASA was showing pictures of gullies in craters taken by
Mars Global Surveyor and saying they were caused by liquid water flows:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/sp....03/index.html
Then afterwards, dissenting voices arose to this interpretation:
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-...ence-00k2.html
http://unisci.com/stories/20012/0402013.htm
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-...ience-02b.html
But Mars Global Surveyor has now croaked, and as a going away present,
NASA has given it credit for finding the same thing again:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=21407
Even though in all likelihood all it's found are dry ice or soil
deposits from subsurface liquid CO2 escaping.
Notice how liquid CO2 doesn't even get mentioned in the press release?
Notice how the new "water" flows are still coming out from deep
underground on crater walls...where liquid CO2 could exist?
And at latitudes above 30 degrees, where liquid water would have a
harder time existing than at the warmer Martian equator?

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:


Dave Michelson wrote:

Pat Flannery wrote:

This annoyed me so much, that I thought it deserves a separate thread
due to its implications in regards to the NASA PAO



Pat,

Neither Ed Weiler nor Mike Malin, who were prominently quoted in the
2000 piece, are members of the PAO.


No, that's not what concerns me...

What's really interesting about all this, is that when people saw images
of the surface of Titan resembling Earth, with mountain river valleys
running down to a delta near an "ocean", nobody had any trouble getting
their heads around the idea of a meteorological cycle and surface
erosion based on liquid methane* instead of H2O.

On Enceladus, no problem "getting it" when reading about how it's
cryovolcanic as opposed to a regular old "hot" volcanic world.

So, based on what I know about Mars going all the way back to junior
high school, I'm able to let go of all the recently-flowing liquid water
hype and grok the idea that the Martian meteorological cycle/surface
erosion/flow-channel and valley cutting would be based on liquid CO2,
even as exciting as the discovery of liquid water on Mars would be
(iirc, the MER team's discussion of the one-time presence of liquid
water at Meridiani was much more realistic; they didn't claim, in
effect, that the last flood at Meridiani subsided just before
Opportunity landed there).

I suppose NASA could've been more guardedly optimistic and pointed out
how these images showed evidence of the recent action of flowing
_liquid_ -- not necessarily water -- on the crater walls, and that the
jury's still out on recent liquid water, but I guess that wouldn't have
made Matt Lauer wet his pants so thoroughly at the top of NBC "Today"
this morning. I actually got a kind of a sick kick out of this; by the
time "Today" went on the air, I'd already seen the press release and the
images and read a good portion of the thread on this group, including
Flannery's pointing out if _any_ liquid was flowing recently enough to
cut those channels, it _had_ to be CO2.






*but this business of water ice being so solidly deep-frozen that it
behaves like rock -- now, _that_ was a pretty intense concept.

--

..

"Though I could not caution all, I yet may warn a few:
Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools!"

--grateful dead.
__________________________________________________ _____________
Mike Flugennock, flugennock at sinkers dot org
"Mikey'zine": dubya dubya dubya dot sinkers dot org

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:33:19 -0500, mike flugennock wrote:

I suppose NASA could've been more guardedly optimistic and pointed out
how these images showed evidence of the recent action of flowing
_liquid_ -- not necessarily water -- on the crater walls, and that the
jury's still out on recent liquid water,

Oddly enough, the BBC's report included the probability that it was
CO2, rather than H2O. The New York Times just reported it as
evidence of recently flowing water.

but I guess that wouldn't have made Matt Lauer wet his pants so thoroughly
at the top of NBC "Today" this morning.

But of course that may not have been urine on his pants, but rather
liquified CO2 as well

Dale

Dale wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:33:19 -0500, mike flugennock wrote:


I suppose NASA could've been more guardedly optimistic and pointed out
how these images showed evidence of the recent action of flowing
_liquid_ -- not necessarily water -- on the crater walls, and that the
jury's still out on recent liquid water,


Oddly enough, the BBC's report included the probability that it was
CO2, rather than H2O. The New York Times just reported it as
evidence of recently flowing water...

And, thanks to the Beeb, again...interesting though, as I understand
that their tv science reporting has really jumped the shark lately.



but I guess that wouldn't have made Matt Lauer wet his pants so thoroughly
at the top of NBC "Today" this morning.


But of course that may not have been urine on his pants, but rather
liquified CO2 as well

But, wouldn't all of us out in TV Land have seen the clouds of
sublimation vapor rising from the area of Matt's pants?

--

..

"Though I could not caution all, I yet may warn a few:
Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools!"

--grateful dead.
__________________________________________________ _____________
Mike Flugennock, flugennock at sinkers dot org
"Mikey'zine": dubya dubya dubya dot sinkers dot org

mike flugennock wrote:


I suppose NASA could've been more guardedly optimistic and pointed out
how these images showed evidence of the recent action of flowing
_liquid_ -- not necessarily water -- on the crater walls, and that the
jury's still out on recent liquid water, but I guess that wouldn't
have made Matt Lauer wet his pants so thoroughly at the top of NBC
"Today" this morning. I actually got a kind of a sick kick out of
this; by the time "Today" went on the air, I'd already seen the press
release and the images and read a good portion of the thread on this
group, including Flannery's pointing out if _any_ liquid was flowing
recently enough to cut those channels, it _had_ to be CO2.


That's what hit me as so odd about the press release; if they had said
it was liquid that _may_ have been water, it would have been iffy and
optimistic, but not outright wrong....but they went out of their way to
state it was water and didn't even mention it could also be liquid CO2,
and that was completely, and purposely, misleading.




*but this business of water ice being so solidly deep-frozen that it
behaves like rock -- now, _that_ was a pretty intense concept.


An ice/soil mixture that is deeply frozen is an incredibly tough
substance that behaves a lot like concrete.
I had the brilliant idea of going fossil hunting in winter a decade or
so back, so as to avoid bugs and ground covering vegetation.
Trying to free a rock from the frozen ground was virtually impossible,
you'd have had to use a hammer and chisel or dynamite to free the thing
from the frozen soil.

Pat