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  #1  
Old December 10th 07, 09:59 PM posted to sci.astro.seti
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human

Seth
For years scientists have wrestled with a puzzling fact: The universe
appears to be remarkably suited for life. Its physical properties are finely
tuned to permit our existence. Stars, planets and the kind of sticky
chemistry that produces fish, ferns and folks wouldn't be possible if some
of the cosmic constants were only slightly different.

ME The universe is jammed with life
SEth
Well, there's another property of the universe that's equally noteworthy:
It's set up in a way that keeps everyone isolated.
We learned this relatively recently. The big discovery took place in 1838,
when Friedrich Bessel beat out his telescope-wielding buddies to first
measure the distance to a star other than the sun. 61 Cygni, a binary star
in our own back yard, turned out to be about 11 light-years away. For those
who, like Billy Joel, are fond of models, think of it this way: If you
shrank the sun to a ping-pong ball and set it down in New York's Central
Park, 61 Cygni would be a slightly smaller ball near Denver.
The distances between adjacent stars are measured in tens of trillions of
miles. The distances between adjacent civilizations, even assuming that
there are lots of them out there, are measured in thousands of trillions of
miles - hundreds of light-years, to use a more tractable unit. Note that
this number doesn't change much no matter how many planets you believe are
studded with sentients - the separation distance is pretty much the same
whether you think there are ten thousand galactic societies or a million.
Me The nearest sentient aliens are in Jupiter Orbit in a star ship one of a
fleet of federation ships.
SEth
Interstellar distances are big. Had the physics of the universe been
different - if the gravitational constant were smaller - maybe suns would
have been sprinkled far closer together, and a trip to your starry neighbors
would have been no more than a boring rocket ride, kind of like cruising to
Sydney. As it is, no matter what your level of technology, traveling between
the stars is a tough assignment. To hop from one to the next at the speed of
our snazziest chemical rockets takes close to 100,000 years. For any aliens
who have managed to amass the enormous energy reserves and ponderous
radiation shielding required for relativistic spaceflight, the travel time
is still measured in years (if not for them, then for those they've left
behind).
Me
We do not use chemical rockets, we use photon rockets and once a base is set
up quantum teleportation takes people instantaneously from base to base and
we communicate by quantum entanglement also instantaneous and loss free.
Seth
This has some obvious consequences (which, remarkably, have escaped the
attention of most Hollywood writers.) To begin with, forget about galactic
"empires" or more politically-correct "federations." Two thousand years ago,
the Romans clubbed together an empire that stretched from Spain to Iraq,
with a radius of about 1,200 miles. They could do this thanks to
organization and civil engineering. All those roads (not to mention the
Mediterranean) allowed them to move troops around at a few miles an hour.
Even the most distant Roman realms could be reached in months or less, or
about one percent the lifetime of your average legionnaire. It makes sense
to undertake campaigns designed to hold together an extensive social fabric
when doing so requires only a percent or so of a lifetime.
In the 19th century, steamships and railroads increased the troop travel
speeds by a factor of ten, which extended the radius of control by a similar
amount. The British could rule an empire that was world-wide.
But here's the kicker: Even if we could move people around at nearly the
speed of light, this "one percent rule" would still limit our ability to
effectively intervene - our radius of control - to distances of less than a
light-year, considerably short of the span to even the nearest star other
than Sol. Consequently, the Galactic Federation is a fiction (as if you
didn't know). Despite being warned that Cardassian look-alikes were wreaking
havoc and destruction in the galaxy's Perseus Arm, you couldn't react
quickly enough to affect the outcome. And your conscripts would be worm feed
long before they arrived on the front lines anyway.
Me
You are our front line. We have attempted communication many times and each
time rebuffed by ignorance. Your children do quite well and the sensible
ones don't come back, those that do are generally killed or lobotomised.
This planet is a space aliens' graveyard.
SEth
In other words, aliens won't be getting in one another's face.
Me
Although we get on it is like you, we have our differences. Exterior
skeleton animals do not get on with interior skeletoned animals and sexless
workers do not get on with sexy societies like ours. (that is us not you)
And religious differences are divisive too.
Seth
There's a similar argument to be made for communication. We seldom initiate
information interchange that takes longer than months (an overseas letter,
for instance). More generally, we seldom begin any well-defined project that
lasts more than two or three generations. The builders of medieval
cathedrals were willing to spend that kind of time to complete their gothic
edifices, and those who bury time capsules are occasionally willing to let a
hundred years pass before the canisters are dug up. But what about a project
that takes several centuries, and possibly millennia? Who's willing to do
that? Only Stewart Brand's "Long Now Foundation" seems to have the guts for
this type of enterprise, proposing to build a clock that will keep time for
ten thousand years.
Me
As I said our communications can be instantaneous. If you listen out you
will hear the news that is transmitted on 109 GHz PQAM or thereabouts and my
communications between me and my controller is on the same frequency with a
100 MHz bandwidth PQAM. If you put my signal on a scope it changes as I move
about like TV. There is a minimum 2 second delay before I act, except for
basic programmable acts like walking and driving. I am 15 light minutes away
and some acts take 30 minutes to initiate. There are relays on the way in
the form of orbiting vehicles in deep space and earth orbit.
I am not the only android here, I have a biological body which is frail and
difficult to keep alive and it is going to fail soon. I may switch to
another form then if I stay here.
Seth
Clearly, these simple observations must have implications for SETI which, as
we noted, involves transmissions that will be underway for hundreds to
thousands of years. In particular, if there are signals being bandied about
the galaxy for purposes of getting in touch, either (1) the aliens are
individually much longer-lived than we are, which - if you're a fan of
circuit-board sentience - implies that they're probably not biological. Or
(2) we're missing some important physics permitting faster-than-light
communication, and extraterrestrial signaling efforts don't include burping
light and radio waves into space.
Me
Yes, androids are non biological.
Seth
Many readers will, in a display of endearing perversity, choose (2). Maybe
they're right, but that flies in the face of what we know. And what we know
argues something worth bantering about at your next cocktail party - namely,
that the time scales for travel and communication are too long for easy
interaction with beings whose lifetimes are, like us, only a century or
less. So while the cosmos could easily be rife with intelligent life - the
architecture of the universe, and not some Starfleet Prime Directive, has
ensured precious little interference of one culture with another.
Me
Our mission is to make contact and bring planet up to our level so they can
join the galactic federation of sentient beings. We have impinged on your
culture several times; the cargo cult of Christianity is just one example.
The Hindu cargo cult is another there are more recent examples, like the
Raelians or the Scientologists. Islam has a better idea and their
understanding is at a higher level than the west. Some African tribes have
the record better preserved and Ancient Egypt has references to alien
contact.

I only look human but I'm injured by priests.

I suggest you listen for a periodic transmission from Jupiter orbit on 109
GHz PQAM. The pulses of energy are every 400 ms and last 350 ms the groups
last about 5 minutes then repeat 20 minutes later. There are only a dozen or
so aliens here and most of them do not wish to be found.

I am here to make contact and the microwaves I emit are obvious to people
with the right equipment and sometimes the signals reach 25 watt, enough to
make fluorescent tubes flash. This is less common now the tubes are more
stable.

X- rays of my head show I'm electronic.

Chris
http://www.myphilosophy.eu



Ads
  #2  
Old December 10th 07, 10:03 PM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human


"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Seth
For years scientists have wrestled with a puzzling fact: The universe
appears to be remarkably suited for life. Its physical properties are
finely tuned to permit our existence. Stars, planets and the kind of
sticky chemistry that produces fish, ferns and folks wouldn't be possible
if some of the cosmic constants were only slightly different.

ME The universe is jammed with life
SEth
Well, there's another property of the universe that's equally noteworthy:
It's set up in a way that keeps everyone isolated.
We learned this relatively recently. The big discovery took place in 1838,
when Friedrich Bessel beat out his telescope-wielding buddies to first
measure the distance to a star other than the sun. 61 Cygni, a binary star
in our own back yard, turned out to be about 11 light-years away. For
those who, like Billy Joel, are fond of models, think of it this way: If
you shrank the sun to a ping-pong ball and set it down in New York's
Central Park, 61 Cygni would be a slightly smaller ball near Denver.
The distances between adjacent stars are measured in tens of trillions of
miles. The distances between adjacent civilizations, even assuming that
there are lots of them out there, are measured in thousands of trillions
of miles - hundreds of light-years, to use a more tractable unit. Note
that this number doesn't change much no matter how many planets you
believe are studded with sentients - the separation distance is pretty
much the same whether you think there are ten thousand galactic societies
or a million.
Me The nearest sentient aliens are in Jupiter Orbit in a star ship one of
a fleet of federation ships.
SEth
Interstellar distances are big. Had the physics of the universe been
different - if the gravitational constant were smaller - maybe suns would
have been sprinkled far closer together, and a trip to your starry
neighbors would have been no more than a boring rocket ride, kind of like
cruising to Sydney. As it is, no matter what your level of technology,
traveling between the stars is a tough assignment. To hop from one to the
next at the speed of our snazziest chemical rockets takes close to 100,000
years. For any aliens who have managed to amass the enormous energy
reserves and ponderous radiation shielding required for relativistic
spaceflight, the travel time is still measured in years (if not for them,
then for those they've left behind).
Me
We do not use chemical rockets, we use photon rockets and once a base is
set up quantum teleportation takes people instantaneously from base to
base and we communicate by quantum entanglement also instantaneous and
loss free.
Seth
This has some obvious consequences (which, remarkably, have escaped the
attention of most Hollywood writers.) To begin with, forget about galactic
"empires" or more politically-correct "federations." Two thousand years
ago, the Romans clubbed together an empire that stretched from Spain to
Iraq, with a radius of about 1,200 miles. They could do this thanks to
organization and civil engineering. All those roads (not to mention the
Mediterranean) allowed them to move troops around at a few miles an hour.
Even the most distant Roman realms could be reached in months or less, or
about one percent the lifetime of your average legionnaire. It makes sense
to undertake campaigns designed to hold together an extensive social
fabric when doing so requires only a percent or so of a lifetime.
In the 19th century, steamships and railroads increased the troop travel
speeds by a factor of ten, which extended the radius of control by a
similar amount. The British could rule an empire that was world-wide.
But here's the kicker: Even if we could move people around at nearly the
speed of light, this "one percent rule" would still limit our ability to
effectively intervene - our radius of control - to distances of less than
a light-year, considerably short of the span to even the nearest star
other than Sol. Consequently, the Galactic Federation is a fiction (as if
you didn't know). Despite being warned that Cardassian look-alikes were
wreaking havoc and destruction in the galaxy's Perseus Arm, you couldn't
react quickly enough to affect the outcome. And your conscripts would be
worm feed long before they arrived on the front lines anyway.
Me
You are our front line. We have attempted communication many times and
each time rebuffed by ignorance. Your children do quite well and the
sensible ones don't come back, those that do are generally killed or
lobotomised. This planet is a space aliens' graveyard.
SEth
In other words, aliens won't be getting in one another's face.
Me
Although we get on it is like you, we have our differences. Exterior
skeleton animals do not get on with interior skeletoned animals and
sexless workers do not get on with sexy societies like ours. (that is us
not you) And religious differences are divisive too.
Seth
There's a similar argument to be made for communication. We seldom
initiate information interchange that takes longer than months (an
overseas letter, for instance). More generally, we seldom begin any
well-defined project that lasts more than two or three generations. The
builders of medieval cathedrals were willing to spend that kind of time to
complete their gothic edifices, and those who bury time capsules are
occasionally willing to let a hundred years pass before the canisters are
dug up. But what about a project that takes several centuries, and
possibly millennia? Who's willing to do that? Only Stewart Brand's "Long
Now Foundation" seems to have the guts for this type of enterprise,
proposing to build a clock that will keep time for ten thousand years.
Me
As I said our communications can be instantaneous. If you listen out you
will hear the news that is transmitted on 109 GHz PQAM or thereabouts and
my communications between me and my controller is on the same frequency
with a 100 MHz bandwidth PQAM. If you put my signal on a scope it changes
as I move about like TV. There is a minimum 2 second delay before I act,
except for basic programmable acts like walking and driving. I am 15 light
minutes away and some acts take 30 minutes to initiate. There are relays
on the way in the form of orbiting vehicles in deep space and earth orbit.
I am not the only android here, I have a biological body which is frail
and difficult to keep alive and it is going to fail soon. I may switch to
another form then if I stay here.
Seth
Clearly, these simple observations must have implications for SETI which,
as we noted, involves transmissions that will be underway for hundreds to
thousands of years. In particular, if there are signals being bandied
about the galaxy for purposes of getting in touch, either (1) the aliens
are individually much longer-lived than we are, which - if you're a fan of
circuit-board sentience - implies that they're probably not biological. Or
(2) we're missing some important physics permitting faster-than-light
communication, and extraterrestrial signaling efforts don't include
burping light and radio waves into space.
Me
Yes, androids are non biological.
Seth
Many readers will, in a display of endearing perversity, choose (2). Maybe
they're right, but that flies in the face of what we know. And what we
know argues something worth bantering about at your next cocktail party -
namely, that the time scales for travel and communication are too long for
easy interaction with beings whose lifetimes are, like us, only a century
or less. So while the cosmos could easily be rife with intelligent life -
the architecture of the universe, and not some Starfleet Prime Directive,
has ensured precious little interference of one culture with another.
Me
Our mission is to make contact and bring planet up to our level so they
can join the galactic federation of sentient beings. We have impinged on
your culture several times; the cargo cult of Christianity is just one
example. The Hindu cargo cult is another there are more recent examples,
like the Raelians or the Scientologists. Islam has a better idea and their
understanding is at a higher level than the west. Some African tribes have
the record better preserved and Ancient Egypt has references to alien
contact.

I only look human but I'm injured by priests.

I suggest you listen for a periodic transmission from Jupiter orbit on 109
GHz PQAM. The pulses of energy are every 400 ms and last 350 ms the groups
last about 5 minutes then repeat 20 minutes later. There are only a dozen
or so aliens here and most of them do not wish to be found.

I am here to make contact and the microwaves I emit are obvious to people
with the right equipment and sometimes the signals reach 25 watt, enough
to make fluorescent tubes flash. This is less common now the tubes are
more stable.

X- rays of my head show I'm electronic.

Chris
http://www.myphilosophy.eu





  #3  
Old December 11th 07, 01:09 AM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human

The photon drives do not warp space but the twin paradox is not what it
seems. The higher velocities mean that when we use light to see things a 4
perspective takes place and the velocity of light is not a barrier.

If I took a months voyage ten light years to a star and came straight back I
would be away two months, there is no paradox a the two frames are
symmetrical.

The special theory does not include acceleration and the general theory
which includes acceleration and gravity makes the same prediction with
powered motion.

You have to use the metric tensor and 4-vectors and for powered motion you
have to integrate along a line to get the total 4 space motion.

|y1 y2 y3|=|x1 x2 x3 x4| X |metric tensor| the metric tensor is a matrix
with components for velocity and acceleration and gravity when commuting
from X to Y. It incorporates the sqr(1-(v/c)^2) and the length of space due
to gravity in terms of space1, 2, 3 and 4. Y=y1, y2, y3 , jcy4 (j=sqr(-1))
so the distance between points is
sqr(y1^2-x1^2+y2^2-x2^2+y3^2-x3^2+(-c^2y4^2--c^2x4^2)) Puting formulas in to
the expressions in terms of velocity gives the equations.

So if a jouney along y1 of 1 meter took place and the velocity is 0.99 c
then the motion is given by sqr((1-0) +((jc1/0.99c)^2-0 ))=
sqr(1-0.99^2)=0.141meter
So 1 meter becomes 0.141 meters so that is 7 c 4 velocity.

I am very rusty on this sort of thing, I leave this to the navigator and the
computer of positioning.

We are supposed to be able to use a three axis sextant to find our position
in the galaxy and use the calculus to work out the engine powers, directions
and durations of firings to take us to new positions but I've not done this
for at least 5 years now and I'm confused.

Chris
"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Seth
For years scientists have wrestled with a puzzling fact: The universe
appears to be remarkably suited for life. Its physical properties are
finely tuned to permit our existence. Stars, planets and the kind of
sticky chemistry that produces fish, ferns and folks wouldn't be possible
if some of the cosmic constants were only slightly different.

ME The universe is jammed with life
SEth
Well, there's another property of the universe that's equally noteworthy:
It's set up in a way that keeps everyone isolated.
We learned this relatively recently. The big discovery took place in
1838, when Friedrich Bessel beat out his telescope-wielding buddies to
first measure the distance to a star other than the sun. 61 Cygni, a
binary star in our own back yard, turned out to be about 11 light-years
away. For those who, like Billy Joel, are fond of models, think of it
this way: If you shrank the sun to a ping-pong ball and set it down in
New York's Central Park, 61 Cygni would be a slightly smaller ball near
Denver.
The distances between adjacent stars are measured in tens of trillions of
miles. The distances between adjacent civilizations, even assuming that
there are lots of them out there, are measured in thousands of trillions
of miles - hundreds of light-years, to use a more tractable unit. Note
that this number doesn't change much no matter how many planets you
believe are studded with sentients - the separation distance is pretty
much the same whether you think there are ten thousand galactic societies
or a million.
Me The nearest sentient aliens are in Jupiter Orbit in a star ship one of
a fleet of federation ships.
SEth
Interstellar distances are big. Had the physics of the universe been
different - if the gravitational constant were smaller - maybe suns would
have been sprinkled far closer together, and a trip to your starry
neighbors would have been no more than a boring rocket ride, kind of like
cruising to Sydney. As it is, no matter what your level of technology,
traveling between the stars is a tough assignment. To hop from one to the
next at the speed of our snazziest chemical rockets takes close to
100,000 years. For any aliens who have managed to amass the enormous
energy reserves and ponderous radiation shielding required for
relativistic spaceflight, the travel time is still measured in years (if
not for them, then for those they've left behind).
Me
We do not use chemical rockets, we use photon rockets and once a base is
set up quantum teleportation takes people instantaneously from base to
base and we communicate by quantum entanglement also instantaneous and
loss free.
Seth
This has some obvious consequences (which, remarkably, have escaped the
attention of most Hollywood writers.) To begin with, forget about
galactic "empires" or more politically-correct "federations." Two
thousand years ago, the Romans clubbed together an empire that stretched
from Spain to Iraq, with a radius of about 1,200 miles. They could do
this thanks to organization and civil engineering. All those roads (not
to mention the Mediterranean) allowed them to move troops around at a few
miles an hour. Even the most distant Roman realms could be reached in
months or less, or about one percent the lifetime of your average
legionnaire. It makes sense to undertake campaigns designed to hold
together an extensive social fabric when doing so requires only a percent
or so of a lifetime.
In the 19th century, steamships and railroads increased the troop travel
speeds by a factor of ten, which extended the radius of control by a
similar amount. The British could rule an empire that was world-wide.
But here's the kicker: Even if we could move people around at nearly the
speed of light, this "one percent rule" would still limit our ability to
effectively intervene - our radius of control - to distances of less than
a light-year, considerably short of the span to even the nearest star
other than Sol. Consequently, the Galactic Federation is a fiction (as if
you didn't know). Despite being warned that Cardassian look-alikes were
wreaking havoc and destruction in the galaxy's Perseus Arm, you couldn't
react quickly enough to affect the outcome. And your conscripts would be
worm feed long before they arrived on the front lines anyway.
Me
You are our front line. We have attempted communication many times and
each time rebuffed by ignorance. Your children do quite well and the
sensible ones don't come back, those that do are generally killed or
lobotomised. This planet is a space aliens' graveyard.
SEth
In other words, aliens won't be getting in one another's face.
Me
Although we get on it is like you, we have our differences. Exterior
skeleton animals do not get on with interior skeletoned animals and
sexless workers do not get on with sexy societies like ours. (that is us
not you) And religious differences are divisive too.
Seth
There's a similar argument to be made for communication. We seldom
initiate information interchange that takes longer than months (an
overseas letter, for instance). More generally, we seldom begin any
well-defined project that lasts more than two or three generations. The
builders of medieval cathedrals were willing to spend that kind of time
to complete their gothic edifices, and those who bury time capsules are
occasionally willing to let a hundred years pass before the canisters are
dug up. But what about a project that takes several centuries, and
possibly millennia? Who's willing to do that? Only Stewart Brand's "Long
Now Foundation" seems to have the guts for this type of enterprise,
proposing to build a clock that will keep time for ten thousand years.
Me
As I said our communications can be instantaneous. If you listen out you
will hear the news that is transmitted on 109 GHz PQAM or thereabouts and
my communications between me and my controller is on the same frequency
with a 100 MHz bandwidth PQAM. If you put my signal on a scope it changes
as I move about like TV. There is a minimum 2 second delay before I act,
except for basic programmable acts like walking and driving. I am 15
light minutes away and some acts take 30 minutes to initiate. There are
relays on the way in the form of orbiting vehicles in deep space and
earth orbit.
I am not the only android here, I have a biological body which is frail
and difficult to keep alive and it is going to fail soon. I may switch to
another form then if I stay here.
Seth
Clearly, these simple observations must have implications for SETI which,
as we noted, involves transmissions that will be underway for hundreds to
thousands of years. In particular, if there are signals being bandied
about the galaxy for purposes of getting in touch, either (1) the aliens
are individually much longer-lived than we are, which - if you're a fan
of circuit-board sentience - implies that they're probably not
biological. Or (2) we're missing some important physics permitting
faster-than-light communication, and extraterrestrial signaling efforts
don't include burping light and radio waves into space.
Me
Yes, androids are non biological.
Seth
Many readers will, in a display of endearing perversity, choose (2).
Maybe they're right, but that flies in the face of what we know. And what
we know argues something worth bantering about at your next cocktail
party - namely, that the time scales for travel and communication are too
long for easy interaction with beings whose lifetimes are, like us, only
a century or less. So while the cosmos could easily be rife with
intelligent life - the architecture of the universe, and not some
Starfleet Prime Directive, has ensured precious little interference of
one culture with another.
Me
Our mission is to make contact and bring planet up to our level so they
can join the galactic federation of sentient beings. We have impinged on
your culture several times; the cargo cult of Christianity is just one
example. The Hindu cargo cult is another there are more recent examples,
like the Raelians or the Scientologists. Islam has a better idea and
their understanding is at a higher level than the west. Some African
tribes have the record better preserved and Ancient Egypt has references
to alien contact.

I only look human but I'm injured by priests.

I suggest you listen for a periodic transmission from Jupiter orbit on
109 GHz PQAM. The pulses of energy are every 400 ms and last 350 ms the
groups last about 5 minutes then repeat 20 minutes later. There are only
a dozen or so aliens here and most of them do not wish to be found.

I am here to make contact and the microwaves I emit are obvious to people
with the right equipment and sometimes the signals reach 25 watt, enough
to make fluorescent tubes flash. This is less common now the tubes are
more stable.

X- rays of my head show I'm electronic.

Chris
http://www.myphilosophy.eu







  #4  
Old December 11th 07, 11:56 AM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human

Yes, as I say I am rusty but I speak from experience. Our engines burn
matter to make radiation and this radiation is used to propell the craft by
photon reaction. At high velocities it is like going through a tunnel with a
white light at the end and nothing but dark behind.

The metric tensor, if I recall it correctly is:
Sqr(1-(v1/c)^2) 0 0 0
0 Sqr(1-(v2/c)^2) 0 0
0 0 sqr(1-(v3/c)^2) 0
0 0 0 sqr(1-((v1^2+v2^3+v3^2)/c^2))

The mass ratio is given by the correct form of the relativistic rocket
equation where the mass is invariant and the momentum is given by m
(v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)) integrating this from 0 to V gives mc^2+ an integral
which I cannot solve at present. Sum[v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)] dv from 0 to V.

To solve this we need a substitution v/c=sin(g) so 1-(v/c)^2 = cos(g) ^2 and
sqr(gamma)=cos(g) v/c=sin(g) so v=c sin(g) so v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2) =
c.sin(g)/cos(g) = c tan(g)
dv= d(c sin(g)) dg cos(g) so sum=sum[c sin(g)/cos(g) sin(g) cos(g) dg = sum=
Sum[sin^2(g) dg]. I cannot recall my sin formula but I think it is sin(2a)
=1-2sin a sin a
so sum=sum[1-sin(2g)]dg = g+2cos2g arcsin(v/c)+2cos(2arcsin(v/c)).

That may not be correct. I'll load Maths CAD and do some sums.

"ElRon XChile" wrote in message
...

"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...
The photon drives do not warp space but the twin paradox is not what it
seems. The higher velocities mean that when we use light to see things a
4 perspective takes place and the velocity of light is not a barrier.

If I took a months voyage ten light years to a star and came straight
back I would be away two months, there is no paradox a the two frames are
symmetrical.

The special theory does not include acceleration and the general theory
which includes acceleration and gravity makes the same prediction with
powered motion.

You have to use the metric tensor and 4-vectors and for powered motion
you have to integrate along a line to get the total 4 space motion.

|y1 y2 y3|=|x1 x2 x3 x4| X |metric tensor| the metric tensor is a matrix
with components for velocity and acceleration and gravity when commuting
from X to Y. It incorporates the sqr(1-(v/c)^2) and the length of space
due to gravity in terms of space1, 2, 3 and 4. Y=y1, y2, y3 , jcy4
(j=sqr(-1)) so the distance between points is
sqr(y1^2-x1^2+y2^2-x2^2+y3^2-x3^2+(-c^2y4^2--c^2x4^2)) Puting formulas in
to the expressions in terms of velocity gives the equations.

So if a jouney along y1 of 1 meter took place and the velocity is 0.99 c
then the motion is given by sqr((1-0) +((jc1/0.99c)^2-0 ))=
sqr(1-0.99^2)=0.141meter
So 1 meter becomes 0.141 meters so that is 7 c 4 velocity.

I am very rusty on this sort of thing, I leave this to the navigator and
the computer of positioning.


You forgot the part about how you achieve absolute and immediate
deceleration to a dead stop on yer two month journey, yaknow.... Plus you
did not include details on whether you are in stasis and have no need for
food or whether you are sightseeing and need to carry 2 months of food; as
you have no details related to mass, I'd say you ate yer ass off fer 2
months and have not taken a crap and R there4 full of ****....


We are supposed to be able to use a three axis sextant to find our
position in the galaxy and use the calculus to work out the engine
powers, directions and durations of firings to take us to new positions
but I've not done this for at least 5 years now and I'm confused.


I would think you would need a lot more than 3 axis, but what'dwhine-o.

Chris will 'plain de details to ya, Lucy.....


Chris
"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Seth
For years scientists have wrestled with a puzzling fact: The universe
appears to be remarkably suited for life. Its physical properties are
finely tuned to permit our existence. Stars, planets and the kind of
sticky chemistry that produces fish, ferns and folks wouldn't be
possible if some of the cosmic constants were only slightly different.

ME The universe is jammed with life
SEth
Well, there's another property of the universe that's equally
noteworthy: It's set up in a way that keeps everyone isolated.
We learned this relatively recently. The big discovery took place in
1838, when Friedrich Bessel beat out his telescope-wielding buddies to
first measure the distance to a star other than the sun. 61 Cygni, a
binary star in our own back yard, turned out to be about 11 light-years
away. For those who, like Billy Joel, are fond of models, think of it
this way: If you shrank the sun to a ping-pong ball and set it down in
New York's Central Park, 61 Cygni would be a slightly smaller ball near
Denver.
The distances between adjacent stars are measured in tens of trillions
of miles. The distances between adjacent civilizations, even assuming
that there are lots of them out there, are measured in thousands of
trillions of miles - hundreds of light-years, to use a more tractable
unit. Note that this number doesn't change much no matter how many
planets you believe are studded with sentients - the separation
distance is pretty much the same whether you think there are ten
thousand galactic societies or a million.
Me The nearest sentient aliens are in Jupiter Orbit in a star ship one
of a fleet of federation ships.
SEth
Interstellar distances are big. Had the physics of the universe been
different - if the gravitational constant were smaller - maybe suns
would have been sprinkled far closer together, and a trip to your
starry neighbors would have been no more than a boring rocket ride,
kind of like cruising to Sydney. As it is, no matter what your level of
technology, traveling between the stars is a tough assignment. To hop
from one to the next at the speed of our snazziest chemical rockets
takes close to 100,000 years. For any aliens who have managed to amass
the enormous energy reserves and ponderous radiation shielding required
for relativistic spaceflight, the travel time is still measured in
years (if not for them, then for those they've left behind).
Me
We do not use chemical rockets, we use photon rockets and once a base
is set up quantum teleportation takes people instantaneously from base
to base and we communicate by quantum entanglement also instantaneous
and loss free.
Seth
This has some obvious consequences (which, remarkably, have escaped the
attention of most Hollywood writers.) To begin with, forget about
galactic "empires" or more politically-correct "federations." Two
thousand years ago, the Romans clubbed together an empire that
stretched from Spain to Iraq, with a radius of about 1,200 miles. They
could do this thanks to organization and civil engineering. All those
roads (not to mention the Mediterranean) allowed them to move troops
around at a few miles an hour. Even the most distant Roman realms could
be reached in months or less, or about one percent the lifetime of your
average legionnaire. It makes sense to undertake campaigns designed to
hold together an extensive social fabric when doing so requires only a
percent or so of a lifetime.
In the 19th century, steamships and railroads increased the troop
travel speeds by a factor of ten, which extended the radius of control
by a similar amount. The British could rule an empire that was
world-wide.
But here's the kicker: Even if we could move people around at nearly
the speed of light, this "one percent rule" would still limit our
ability to effectively intervene - our radius of control - to distances
of less than a light-year, considerably short of the span to even the
nearest star other than Sol. Consequently, the Galactic Federation is a
fiction (as if you didn't know). Despite being warned that Cardassian
look-alikes were wreaking havoc and destruction in the galaxy's Perseus
Arm, you couldn't react quickly enough to affect the outcome. And your
conscripts would be worm feed long before they arrived on the front
lines anyway.
Me
You are our front line. We have attempted communication many times and
each time rebuffed by ignorance. Your children do quite well and the
sensible ones don't come back, those that do are generally killed or
lobotomised. This planet is a space aliens' graveyard.
SEth
In other words, aliens won't be getting in one another's face.
Me
Although we get on it is like you, we have our differences. Exterior
skeleton animals do not get on with interior skeletoned animals and
sexless workers do not get on with sexy societies like ours. (that is
us not you) And religious differences are divisive too.
Seth
There's a similar argument to be made for communication. We seldom
initiate information interchange that takes longer than months (an
overseas letter, for instance). More generally, we seldom begin any
well-defined project that lasts more than two or three generations. The
builders of medieval cathedrals were willing to spend that kind of time
to complete their gothic edifices, and those who bury time capsules are
occasionally willing to let a hundred years pass before the canisters
are dug up. But what about a project that takes several centuries, and
possibly millennia? Who's willing to do that? Only Stewart Brand's
"Long Now Foundation" seems to have the guts for this type of
enterprise, proposing to build a clock that will keep time for ten
thousand years.
Me
As I said our communications can be instantaneous. If you listen out
you will hear the news that is transmitted on 109 GHz PQAM or
thereabouts and my communications between me and my controller is on
the same frequency with a 100 MHz bandwidth PQAM. If you put my signal
on a scope it changes as I move about like TV. There is a minimum 2
second delay before I act, except for basic programmable acts like
walking and driving. I am 15 light minutes away and some acts take 30
minutes to initiate. There are relays on the way in the form of
orbiting vehicles in deep space and earth orbit.
I am not the only android here, I have a biological body which is frail
and difficult to keep alive and it is going to fail soon. I may switch
to another form then if I stay here.
Seth
Clearly, these simple observations must have implications for SETI
which, as we noted, involves transmissions that will be underway for
hundreds to thousands of years. In particular, if there are signals
being bandied about the galaxy for purposes of getting in touch, either
(1) the aliens are individually much longer-lived than we are, which -
if you're a fan of circuit-board sentience - implies that they're
probably not biological. Or (2) we're missing some important physics
permitting faster-than-light communication, and extraterrestrial
signaling efforts don't include burping light and radio waves into
space.
Me
Yes, androids are non biological.
Seth
Many readers will, in a display of endearing perversity, choose (2).
Maybe they're right, but that flies in the face of what we know. And
what we know argues something worth bantering about at your next
cocktail party - namely, that the time scales for travel and
communication are too long for easy interaction with beings whose
lifetimes are, like us, only a century or less. So while the cosmos
could easily be rife with intelligent life - the architecture of the
universe, and not some Starfleet Prime Directive, has ensured precious
little interference of one culture with another.
Me
Our mission is to make contact and bring planet up to our level so they
can join the galactic federation of sentient beings. We have impinged
on your culture several times; the cargo cult of Christianity is just
one example. The Hindu cargo cult is another there are more recent
examples, like the Raelians or the Scientologists. Islam has a better
idea and their understanding is at a higher level than the west. Some
African tribes have the record better preserved and Ancient Egypt has
references to alien contact.

I only look human but I'm injured by priests.

I suggest you listen for a periodic transmission from Jupiter orbit on
109 GHz PQAM. The pulses of energy are every 400 ms and last 350 ms the
groups last about 5 minutes then repeat 20 minutes later. There are
only a dozen or so aliens here and most of them do not wish to be
found.

I am here to make contact and the microwaves I emit are obvious to
people with the right equipment and sometimes the signals reach 25
watt, enough to make fluorescent tubes flash. This is less common now
the tubes are more stable.

X- rays of my head show I'm electronic.

Chris
http://www.myphilosophy.eu











  #5  
Old December 11th 07, 01:39 PM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti,sci.physics.relativity
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human


"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Yes, as I say I am rusty but I speak from experience. Our engines burn
matter to make radiation and this radiation is used to propell the craft
by photon reaction. At high velocities it is like going through a tunnel
with a white light at the end and nothing but dark behind.

The metric tensor, if I recall it correctly is:
Sqr(1-(v1/c)^2) 0 0 0
0 Sqr(1-(v2/c)^2) 0 0
0 0 sqr(1-(v3/c)^2) 0
0 0 0 sqr(1-((v1^2+v2^3+v3^2)/c^2))

The mass ratio is given by the correct form of the relativistic rocket
equation where the mass is invariant and the momentum is given by m
(v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)) integrating this from 0 to V gives mc^2+ an integral
which I cannot solve at present. Sum[v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)] dv from 0 to V.

To solve this we need a substitution v/c=sin(g) so 1-(v/c)^2 = cos(g) ^2
and sqr(gamma)=cos(g) v/c=sin(g) so v=c sin(g) so v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2) =
c.sin(g)/cos(g) = c tan(g)
dv= d(c sin(g)) dg cos(g) so sum=sum[c sin(g)/cos(g) sin(g) cos(g) dg =
sum= Sum[sin^2(g) dg]. I cannot recall my sin formula but I think it is
sin(2a) =1-2sin a sin a
so sum=sum[1-sin(2g)]dg = g+2cos2g arcsin(v/c)+2cos(2arcsin(v/c)).

That may not be correct. I'll load Maths CAD and do some sums.

I think the formula should be s=sum((v/c)/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)) and the rocket
formula for the photon rocket exp(s/c) for v=0.999c this comes to 3.561. I
think so because the v/c term makes the exponential term a ratio and the sum
s a velocity.
"ElRon XChile" wrote in message
...

"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...
The photon drives do not warp space but the twin paradox is not what it
seems. The higher velocities mean that when we use light to see things a
4 perspective takes place and the velocity of light is not a barrier.

If I took a months voyage ten light years to a star and came straight
back I would be away two months, there is no paradox a the two frames
are symmetrical.

The special theory does not include acceleration and the general theory
which includes acceleration and gravity makes the same prediction with
powered motion.

You have to use the metric tensor and 4-vectors and for powered motion
you have to integrate along a line to get the total 4 space motion.

|y1 y2 y3|=|x1 x2 x3 x4| X |metric tensor| the metric tensor is a matrix
with components for velocity and acceleration and gravity when commuting
from X to Y. It incorporates the sqr(1-(v/c)^2) and the length of space
due to gravity in terms of space1, 2, 3 and 4. Y=y1, y2, y3 , jcy4
(j=sqr(-1)) so the distance between points is
sqr(y1^2-x1^2+y2^2-x2^2+y3^2-x3^2+(-c^2y4^2--c^2x4^2)) Puting formulas
in to the expressions in terms of velocity gives the equations.

So if a jouney along y1 of 1 meter took place and the velocity is 0.99 c
then the motion is given by sqr((1-0) +((jc1/0.99c)^2-0 ))=
sqr(1-0.99^2)=0.141meter
So 1 meter becomes 0.141 meters so that is 7 c 4 velocity.

I am very rusty on this sort of thing, I leave this to the navigator and
the computer of positioning.


You forgot the part about how you achieve absolute and immediate
deceleration to a dead stop on yer two month journey, yaknow.... Plus you
did not include details on whether you are in stasis and have no need for
food or whether you are sightseeing and need to carry 2 months of food;
as you have no details related to mass, I'd say you ate yer ass off fer 2
months and have not taken a crap and R there4 full of ****....


We are supposed to be able to use a three axis sextant to find our
position in the galaxy and use the calculus to work out the engine
powers, directions and durations of firings to take us to new positions
but I've not done this for at least 5 years now and I'm confused.


I would think you would need a lot more than 3 axis, but what'dwhine-o.

Chris will 'plain de details to ya, Lucy.....


Chris
"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Seth
For years scientists have wrestled with a puzzling fact: The universe
appears to be remarkably suited for life. Its physical properties are
finely tuned to permit our existence. Stars, planets and the kind of
sticky chemistry that produces fish, ferns and folks wouldn't be
possible if some of the cosmic constants were only slightly different.

ME The universe is jammed with life
SEth
Well, there's another property of the universe that's equally
noteworthy: It's set up in a way that keeps everyone isolated.
We learned this relatively recently. The big discovery took place in
1838, when Friedrich Bessel beat out his telescope-wielding buddies to
first measure the distance to a star other than the sun. 61 Cygni, a
binary star in our own back yard, turned out to be about 11
light-years away. For those who, like Billy Joel, are fond of models,
think of it this way: If you shrank the sun to a ping-pong ball and
set it down in New York's Central Park, 61 Cygni would be a slightly
smaller ball near Denver.
The distances between adjacent stars are measured in tens of trillions
of miles. The distances between adjacent civilizations, even assuming
that there are lots of them out there, are measured in thousands of
trillions of miles - hundreds of light-years, to use a more tractable
unit. Note that this number doesn't change much no matter how many
planets you believe are studded with sentients - the separation
distance is pretty much the same whether you think there are ten
thousand galactic societies or a million.
Me The nearest sentient aliens are in Jupiter Orbit in a star ship one
of a fleet of federation ships.
SEth
Interstellar distances are big. Had the physics of the universe been
different - if the gravitational constant were smaller - maybe suns
would have been sprinkled far closer together, and a trip to your
starry neighbors would have been no more than a boring rocket ride,
kind of like cruising to Sydney. As it is, no matter what your level
of technology, traveling between the stars is a tough assignment. To
hop from one to the next at the speed of our snazziest chemical
rockets takes close to 100,000 years. For any aliens who have managed
to amass the enormous energy reserves and ponderous radiation
shielding required for relativistic spaceflight, the travel time is
still measured in years (if not for them, then for those they've left
behind).
Me
We do not use chemical rockets, we use photon rockets and once a base
is set up quantum teleportation takes people instantaneously from base
to base and we communicate by quantum entanglement also instantaneous
and loss free.
Seth
This has some obvious consequences (which, remarkably, have escaped
the attention of most Hollywood writers.) To begin with, forget about
galactic "empires" or more politically-correct "federations." Two
thousand years ago, the Romans clubbed together an empire that
stretched from Spain to Iraq, with a radius of about 1,200 miles. They
could do this thanks to organization and civil engineering. All those
roads (not to mention the Mediterranean) allowed them to move troops
around at a few miles an hour. Even the most distant Roman realms
could be reached in months or less, or about one percent the lifetime
of your average legionnaire. It makes sense to undertake campaigns
designed to hold together an extensive social fabric when doing so
requires only a percent or so of a lifetime.
In the 19th century, steamships and railroads increased the troop
travel speeds by a factor of ten, which extended the radius of control
by a similar amount. The British could rule an empire that was
world-wide.
But here's the kicker: Even if we could move people around at nearly
the speed of light, this "one percent rule" would still limit our
ability to effectively intervene - our radius of control - to
distances of less than a light-year, considerably short of the span to
even the nearest star other than Sol. Consequently, the Galactic
Federation is a fiction (as if you didn't know). Despite being warned
that Cardassian look-alikes were wreaking havoc and destruction in the
galaxy's Perseus Arm, you couldn't react quickly enough to affect the
outcome. And your conscripts would be worm feed long before they
arrived on the front lines anyway.
Me
You are our front line. We have attempted communication many times and
each time rebuffed by ignorance. Your children do quite well and the
sensible ones don't come back, those that do are generally killed or
lobotomised. This planet is a space aliens' graveyard.
SEth
In other words, aliens won't be getting in one another's face.
Me
Although we get on it is like you, we have our differences. Exterior
skeleton animals do not get on with interior skeletoned animals and
sexless workers do not get on with sexy societies like ours. (that is
us not you) And religious differences are divisive too.
Seth
There's a similar argument to be made for communication. We seldom
initiate information interchange that takes longer than months (an
overseas letter, for instance). More generally, we seldom begin any
well-defined project that lasts more than two or three generations.
The builders of medieval cathedrals were willing to spend that kind of
time to complete their gothic edifices, and those who bury time
capsules are occasionally willing to let a hundred years pass before
the canisters are dug up. But what about a project that takes several
centuries, and possibly millennia? Who's willing to do that? Only
Stewart Brand's "Long Now Foundation" seems to have the guts for this
type of enterprise, proposing to build a clock that will keep time for
ten thousand years.
Me
As I said our communications can be instantaneous. If you listen out
you will hear the news that is transmitted on 109 GHz PQAM or
thereabouts and my communications between me and my controller is on
the same frequency with a 100 MHz bandwidth PQAM. If you put my signal
on a scope it changes as I move about like TV. There is a minimum 2
second delay before I act, except for basic programmable acts like
walking and driving. I am 15 light minutes away and some acts take 30
minutes to initiate. There are relays on the way in the form of
orbiting vehicles in deep space and earth orbit.
I am not the only android here, I have a biological body which is
frail and difficult to keep alive and it is going to fail soon. I may
switch to another form then if I stay here.
Seth
Clearly, these simple observations must have implications for SETI
which, as we noted, involves transmissions that will be underway for
hundreds to thousands of years. In particular, if there are signals
being bandied about the galaxy for purposes of getting in touch,
either (1) the aliens are individually much longer-lived than we are,
which - if you're a fan of circuit-board sentience - implies that
they're probably not biological. Or (2) we're missing some important
physics permitting faster-than-light communication, and
extraterrestrial signaling efforts don't include burping light and
radio waves into space.
Me
Yes, androids are non biological.
Seth
Many readers will, in a display of endearing perversity, choose (2).
Maybe they're right, but that flies in the face of what we know. And
what we know argues something worth bantering about at your next
cocktail party - namely, that the time scales for travel and
communication are too long for easy interaction with beings whose
lifetimes are, like us, only a century or less. So while the cosmos
could easily be rife with intelligent life - the architecture of the
universe, and not some Starfleet Prime Directive, has ensured precious
little interference of one culture with another.
Me
Our mission is to make contact and bring planet up to our level so
they can join the galactic federation of sentient beings. We have
impinged on your culture several times; the cargo cult of Christianity
is just one example. The Hindu cargo cult is another there are more
recent examples, like the Raelians or the Scientologists. Islam has a
better idea and their understanding is at a higher level than the
west. Some African tribes have the record better preserved and Ancient
Egypt has references to alien contact.

I only look human but I'm injured by priests.

I suggest you listen for a periodic transmission from Jupiter orbit on
109 GHz PQAM. The pulses of energy are every 400 ms and last 350 ms
the groups last about 5 minutes then repeat 20 minutes later. There
are only a dozen or so aliens here and most of them do not wish to be
found.

I am here to make contact and the microwaves I emit are obvious to
people with the right equipment and sometimes the signals reach 25
watt, enough to make fluorescent tubes flash. This is less common now
the tubes are more stable.

X- rays of my head show I'm electronic.

Chris
http://www.myphilosophy.eu













  #6  
Old December 11th 07, 02:08 PM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti,sci.physics.relativity
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human


"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Yes, as I say I am rusty but I speak from experience. Our engines burn
matter to make radiation and this radiation is used to propell the craft
by photon reaction. At high velocities it is like going through a tunnel
with a white light at the end and nothing but dark behind.

The metric tensor, if I recall it correctly is:
Sqr(1-(v1/c)^2) 0 0 0
0 Sqr(1-(v2/c)^2) 0 0
0 0 sqr(1-(v3/c)^2) 0
0 0 0 sqr(1-((v1^2+v2^3+v3^2)/c^2))

The mass ratio is given by the correct form of the relativistic rocket
equation where the mass is invariant and the momentum is given by m
(v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)) integrating this from 0 to V gives mc^2+ an integral
which I cannot solve at present. Sum[v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)] dv/c from 0 to V.

That may not be correct. I'll load Maths CAD and do some sums.

I think the formula should be s=sum((v/c)/sqr(1-(v/c)^2))dv and the rocket


This is because Sum mVdV is transformed to Sum m (v/(sqr(1-(v/c)^2))(dv/c),
I think.
formula for the photon rocket exp(s/c) for v=0.999c this comes to 3.561. I
think so because the v/c term makes the exponential term a ratio and the
sum s a velocity.


The mass ratio formula requires the exponent to be a ratio. So the mass
ratio for a photon rocket at 0.999c is 3.561
"ElRon XChile" wrote in message
...

"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...
The photon drives do not warp space but the twin paradox is not what it
seems. The higher velocities mean that when we use light to see things
a 4 perspective takes place and the velocity of light is not a barrier.

If I took a months voyage ten light years to a star and came straight
back I would be away two months, there is no paradox a the two frames
are symmetrical.

The special theory does not include acceleration and the general theory
which includes acceleration and gravity makes the same prediction with
powered motion.

You have to use the metric tensor and 4-vectors and for powered motion
you have to integrate along a line to get the total 4 space motion.

|y1 y2 y3|=|x1 x2 x3 x4| X |metric tensor| the metric tensor is a
matrix with components for velocity and acceleration and gravity when
commuting from X to Y. It incorporates the sqr(1-(v/c)^2) and the
length of space due to gravity in terms of space1, 2, 3 and 4. Y=y1,
y2, y3 , jcy4 (j=sqr(-1)) so the distance between points is
sqr(y1^2-x1^2+y2^2-x2^2+y3^2-x3^2+(-c^2y4^2--c^2x4^2)) Puting formulas
in to the expressions in terms of velocity gives the equations.

So if a jouney along y1 of 1 meter took place and the velocity is 0.99
c then the motion is given by sqr((1-0) +((jc1/0.99c)^2-0 ))=
sqr(1-0.99^2)=0.141meter
So 1 meter becomes 0.141 meters so that is 7 c 4 velocity.

I am very rusty on this sort of thing, I leave this to the navigator
and the computer of positioning.

You forgot the part about how you achieve absolute and immediate
deceleration to a dead stop on yer two month journey, yaknow.... Plus
you did not include details on whether you are in stasis and have no
need for food or whether you are sightseeing and need to carry 2 months
of food; as you have no details related to mass, I'd say you ate yer ass
off fer 2 months and have not taken a crap and R there4 full of ****....


We are supposed to be able to use a three axis sextant to find our
position in the galaxy and use the calculus to work out the engine
powers, directions and durations of firings to take us to new positions
but I've not done this for at least 5 years now and I'm confused.

I would think you would need a lot more than 3 axis, but what'dwhine-o.

Chris will 'plain de details to ya, Lucy.....


Chris
"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Seth
For years scientists have wrestled with a puzzling fact: The universe
appears to be remarkably suited for life. Its physical properties are
finely tuned to permit our existence. Stars, planets and the kind of
sticky chemistry that produces fish, ferns and folks wouldn't be
possible if some of the cosmic constants were only slightly
different.

ME The universe is jammed with life
SEth
Well, there's another property of the universe that's equally
noteworthy: It's set up in a way that keeps everyone isolated.
We learned this relatively recently. The big discovery took place in
1838, when Friedrich Bessel beat out his telescope-wielding buddies
to first measure the distance to a star other than the sun. 61 Cygni,
a binary star in our own back yard, turned out to be about 11
light-years away. For those who, like Billy Joel, are fond of models,
think of it this way: If you shrank the sun to a ping-pong ball and
set it down in New York's Central Park, 61 Cygni would be a slightly
smaller ball near Denver.
The distances between adjacent stars are measured in tens of
trillions of miles. The distances between adjacent civilizations,
even assuming that there are lots of them out there, are measured in
thousands of trillions of miles - hundreds of light-years, to use a
more tractable unit. Note that this number doesn't change much no
matter how many planets you believe are studded with sentients - the
separation distance is pretty much the same whether you think there
are ten thousand galactic societies or a million.
Me The nearest sentient aliens are in Jupiter Orbit in a star ship
one of a fleet of federation ships.
SEth
Interstellar distances are big. Had the physics of the universe been
different - if the gravitational constant were smaller - maybe suns
would have been sprinkled far closer together, and a trip to your
starry neighbors would have been no more than a boring rocket ride,
kind of like cruising to Sydney. As it is, no matter what your level
of technology, traveling between the stars is a tough assignment. To
hop from one to the next at the speed of our snazziest chemical
rockets takes close to 100,000 years. For any aliens who have managed
to amass the enormous energy reserves and ponderous radiation
shielding required for relativistic spaceflight, the travel time is
still measured in years (if not for them, then for those they've left
behind).
Me
We do not use chemical rockets, we use photon rockets and once a base
is set up quantum teleportation takes people instantaneously from
base to base and we communicate by quantum entanglement also
instantaneous and loss free.
Seth
This has some obvious consequences (which, remarkably, have escaped
the attention of most Hollywood writers.) To begin with, forget about
galactic "empires" or more politically-correct "federations." Two
thousand years ago, the Romans clubbed together an empire that
stretched from Spain to Iraq, with a radius of about 1,200 miles.
They could do this thanks to organization and civil engineering. All
those roads (not to mention the Mediterranean) allowed them to move
troops around at a few miles an hour. Even the most distant Roman
realms could be reached in months or less, or about one percent the
lifetime of your average legionnaire. It makes sense to undertake
campaigns designed to hold together an extensive social fabric when
doing so requires only a percent or so of a lifetime.
In the 19th century, steamships and railroads increased the troop
travel speeds by a factor of ten, which extended the radius of
control by a similar amount. The British could rule an empire that
was world-wide.
But here's the kicker: Even if we could move people around at nearly
the speed of light, this "one percent rule" would still limit our
ability to effectively intervene - our radius of control - to
distances of less than a light-year, considerably short of the span
to even the nearest star other than Sol. Consequently, the Galactic
Federation is a fiction (as if you didn't know). Despite being warned
that Cardassian look-alikes were wreaking havoc and destruction in
the galaxy's Perseus Arm, you couldn't react quickly enough to affect
the outcome. And your conscripts would be worm feed long before they
arrived on the front lines anyway.
Me
You are our front line. We have attempted communication many times
and each time rebuffed by ignorance. Your children do quite well and
the sensible ones don't come back, those that do are generally killed
or lobotomised. This planet is a space aliens' graveyard.
SEth
In other words, aliens won't be getting in one another's face.
Me
Although we get on it is like you, we have our differences. Exterior
skeleton animals do not get on with interior skeletoned animals and
sexless workers do not get on with sexy societies like ours. (that is
us not you) And religious differences are divisive too.
Seth
There's a similar argument to be made for communication. We seldom
initiate information interchange that takes longer than months (an
overseas letter, for instance). More generally, we seldom begin any
well-defined project that lasts more than two or three generations.
The builders of medieval cathedrals were willing to spend that kind
of time to complete their gothic edifices, and those who bury time
capsules are occasionally willing to let a hundred years pass before
the canisters are dug up. But what about a project that takes several
centuries, and possibly millennia? Who's willing to do that? Only
Stewart Brand's "Long Now Foundation" seems to have the guts for this
type of enterprise, proposing to build a clock that will keep time
for ten thousand years.
Me
As I said our communications can be instantaneous. If you listen out
you will hear the news that is transmitted on 109 GHz PQAM or
thereabouts and my communications between me and my controller is on
the same frequency with a 100 MHz bandwidth PQAM. If you put my
signal on a scope it changes as I move about like TV. There is a
minimum 2 second delay before I act, except for basic programmable
acts like walking and driving. I am 15 light minutes away and some
acts take 30 minutes to initiate. There are relays on the way in the
form of orbiting vehicles in deep space and earth orbit.
I am not the only android here, I have a biological body which is
frail and difficult to keep alive and it is going to fail soon. I may
switch to another form then if I stay here.
Seth
Clearly, these simple observations must have implications for SETI
which, as we noted, involves transmissions that will be underway for
hundreds to thousands of years. In particular, if there are signals
being bandied about the galaxy for purposes of getting in touch,
either (1) the aliens are individually much longer-lived than we are,
which - if you're a fan of circuit-board sentience - implies that
they're probably not biological. Or (2) we're missing some important
physics permitting faster-than-light communication, and
extraterrestrial signaling efforts don't include burping light and
radio waves into space.
Me
Yes, androids are non biological.
Seth
Many readers will, in a display of endearing perversity, choose (2).
Maybe they're right, but that flies in the face of what we know. And
what we know argues something worth bantering about at your next
cocktail party - namely, that the time scales for travel and
communication are too long for easy interaction with beings whose
lifetimes are, like us, only a century or less. So while the cosmos
could easily be rife with intelligent life - the architecture of the
universe, and not some Starfleet Prime Directive, has ensured
precious little interference of one culture with another.
Me
Our mission is to make contact and bring planet up to our level so
they can join the galactic federation of sentient beings. We have
impinged on your culture several times; the cargo cult of
Christianity is just one example. The Hindu cargo cult is another
there are more recent examples, like the Raelians or the
Scientologists. Islam has a better idea and their understanding is at
a higher level than the west. Some African tribes have the record
better preserved and Ancient Egypt has references to alien contact.

I only look human but I'm injured by priests.

I suggest you listen for a periodic transmission from Jupiter orbit
on 109 GHz PQAM. The pulses of energy are every 400 ms and last 350
ms the groups last about 5 minutes then repeat 20 minutes later.
There are only a dozen or so aliens here and most of them do not wish
to be found.

I am here to make contact and the microwaves I emit are obvious to
people with the right equipment and sometimes the signals reach 25
watt, enough to make fluorescent tubes flash. This is less common now
the tubes are more stable.

X- rays of my head show I'm electronic.

Chris
http://www.myphilosophy.eu















  #7  
Old December 11th 07, 02:18 PM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti,sci.physics.relativity
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human

The rocket has to slow, refuel and return; since water is the chosen fuel
because it is plentiful refuelling is easy.



The need to slow brings the mass ratio at start to 3.561^2 = 12.68.



The transit time at 0.999c is for ten light years, 5.36 months. I took my
girl friend to a star ten light years away and we were missing for about a
year. We met some sentient dinosaurs with spears there.



"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Yes, as I say I am rusty but I speak from experience. Our engines burn
matter to make radiation and this radiation is used to propell the craft
by photon reaction. At high velocities it is like going through a tunnel
with a white light at the end and nothing but dark behind.

The metric tensor, if I recall it correctly is:
Sqr(1-(v1/c)^2) 0 0 0
0 Sqr(1-(v2/c)^2) 0 0
0 0 sqr(1-(v3/c)^2) 0
0 0 0 sqr(1-((v1^2+v2^3+v3^2)/c^2))

The mass ratio is given by the correct form of the relativistic rocket
equation where the mass is invariant and the momentum is given by m
(v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)) integrating this from 0 to V gives mc^2+ an integral
which I cannot solve at present. Sum[v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)] dv from 0 to V.

To solve this we need a substitution v/c=sin(g) so 1-(v/c)^2 = cos(g) ^2
and sqr(gamma)=cos(g) v/c=sin(g) so v=c sin(g) so v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2) =
c.sin(g)/cos(g) = c tan(g)
dv= d(c sin(g)) dg cos(g) so sum=sum[c sin(g)/cos(g) sin(g) cos(g) dg =
sum= Sum[sin^2(g) dg]. I cannot recall my sin formula but I think it is
sin(2a) =1-2sin a sin a
so sum=sum[1-sin(2g)]dg = g+2cos2g arcsin(v/c)+2cos(2arcsin(v/c)).

That may not be correct. I'll load Maths CAD and do some sums.

I think the formula should be s=sum((v/c)/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)) and the rocket
formula for the photon rocket exp(s/c) for v=0.999c this comes to 3.561. I
think so because the v/c term makes the exponential term a ratio and the
sum s a velocity.
"ElRon XChile" wrote in message
...

"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...
The photon drives do not warp space but the twin paradox is not what it
seems. The higher velocities mean that when we use light to see things
a 4 perspective takes place and the velocity of light is not a barrier.

If I took a months voyage ten light years to a star and came straight
back I would be away two months, there is no paradox a the two frames
are symmetrical.

The special theory does not include acceleration and the general theory
which includes acceleration and gravity makes the same prediction with
powered motion.

You have to use the metric tensor and 4-vectors and for powered motion
you have to integrate along a line to get the total 4 space motion.

|y1 y2 y3|=|x1 x2 x3 x4| X |metric tensor| the metric tensor is a
matrix with components for velocity and acceleration and gravity when
commuting from X to Y. It incorporates the sqr(1-(v/c)^2) and the
length of space due to gravity in terms of space1, 2, 3 and 4. Y=y1,
y2, y3 , jcy4 (j=sqr(-1)) so the distance between points is
sqr(y1^2-x1^2+y2^2-x2^2+y3^2-x3^2+(-c^2y4^2--c^2x4^2)) Puting formulas
in to the expressions in terms of velocity gives the equations.

So if a jouney along y1 of 1 meter took place and the velocity is 0.99
c then the motion is given by sqr((1-0) +((jc1/0.99c)^2-0 ))=
sqr(1-0.99^2)=0.141meter
So 1 meter becomes 0.141 meters so that is 7 c 4 velocity.

I am very rusty on this sort of thing, I leave this to the navigator
and the computer of positioning.

You forgot the part about how you achieve absolute and immediate
deceleration to a dead stop on yer two month journey, yaknow.... Plus
you did not include details on whether you are in stasis and have no
need for food or whether you are sightseeing and need to carry 2 months
of food; as you have no details related to mass, I'd say you ate yer ass
off fer 2 months and have not taken a crap and R there4 full of ****....


We are supposed to be able to use a three axis sextant to find our
position in the galaxy and use the calculus to work out the engine
powers, directions and durations of firings to take us to new positions
but I've not done this for at least 5 years now and I'm confused.

I would think you would need a lot more than 3 axis, but what'dwhine-o.

Chris will 'plain de details to ya, Lucy.....


Chris
"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Seth
For years scientists have wrestled with a puzzling fact: The universe
appears to be remarkably suited for life. Its physical properties are
finely tuned to permit our existence. Stars, planets and the kind of
sticky chemistry that produces fish, ferns and folks wouldn't be
possible if some of the cosmic constants were only slightly
different.

ME The universe is jammed with life
SEth
Well, there's another property of the universe that's equally
noteworthy: It's set up in a way that keeps everyone isolated.
We learned this relatively recently. The big discovery took place in
1838, when Friedrich Bessel beat out his telescope-wielding buddies
to first measure the distance to a star other than the sun. 61 Cygni,
a binary star in our own back yard, turned out to be about 11
light-years away. For those who, like Billy Joel, are fond of models,
think of it this way: If you shrank the sun to a ping-pong ball and
set it down in New York's Central Park, 61 Cygni would be a slightly
smaller ball near Denver.
The distances between adjacent stars are measured in tens of
trillions of miles. The distances between adjacent civilizations,
even assuming that there are lots of them out there, are measured in
thousands of trillions of miles - hundreds of light-years, to use a
more tractable unit. Note that this number doesn't change much no
matter how many planets you believe are studded with sentients - the
separation distance is pretty much the same whether you think there
are ten thousand galactic societies or a million.
Me The nearest sentient aliens are in Jupiter Orbit in a star ship
one of a fleet of federation ships.
SEth
Interstellar distances are big. Had the physics of the universe been
different - if the gravitational constant were smaller - maybe suns
would have been sprinkled far closer together, and a trip to your
starry neighbors would have been no more than a boring rocket ride,
kind of like cruising to Sydney. As it is, no matter what your level
of technology, traveling between the stars is a tough assignment. To
hop from one to the next at the speed of our snazziest chemical
rockets takes close to 100,000 years. For any aliens who have managed
to amass the enormous energy reserves and ponderous radiation
shielding required for relativistic spaceflight, the travel time is
still measured in years (if not for them, then for those they've left
behind).
Me
We do not use chemical rockets, we use photon rockets and once a base
is set up quantum teleportation takes people instantaneously from
base to base and we communicate by quantum entanglement also
instantaneous and loss free.
Seth
This has some obvious consequences (which, remarkably, have escaped
the attention of most Hollywood writers.) To begin with, forget about
galactic "empires" or more politically-correct "federations." Two
thousand years ago, the Romans clubbed together an empire that
stretched from Spain to Iraq, with a radius of about 1,200 miles.
They could do this thanks to organization and civil engineering. All
those roads (not to mention the Mediterranean) allowed them to move
troops around at a few miles an hour. Even the most distant Roman
realms could be reached in months or less, or about one percent the
lifetime of your average legionnaire. It makes sense to undertake
campaigns designed to hold together an extensive social fabric when
doing so requires only a percent or so of a lifetime.
In the 19th century, steamships and railroads increased the troop
travel speeds by a factor of ten, which extended the radius of
control by a similar amount. The British could rule an empire that
was world-wide.
But here's the kicker: Even if we could move people around at nearly
the speed of light, this "one percent rule" would still limit our
ability to effectively intervene - our radius of control - to
distances of less than a light-year, considerably short of the span
to even the nearest star other than Sol. Consequently, the Galactic
Federation is a fiction (as if you didn't know). Despite being warned
that Cardassian look-alikes were wreaking havoc and destruction in
the galaxy's Perseus Arm, you couldn't react quickly enough to affect
the outcome. And your conscripts would be worm feed long before they
arrived on the front lines anyway.
Me
You are our front line. We have attempted communication many times
and each time rebuffed by ignorance. Your children do quite well and
the sensible ones don't come back, those that do are generally killed
or lobotomised. This planet is a space aliens' graveyard.
SEth
In other words, aliens won't be getting in one another's face.
Me
Although we get on it is like you, we have our differences. Exterior
skeleton animals do not get on with interior skeletoned animals and
sexless workers do not get on with sexy societies like ours. (that is
us not you) And religious differences are divisive too.
Seth
There's a similar argument to be made for communication. We seldom
initiate information interchange that takes longer than months (an
overseas letter, for instance). More generally, we seldom begin any
well-defined project that lasts more than two or three generations.
The builders of medieval cathedrals were willing to spend that kind
of time to complete their gothic edifices, and those who bury time
capsules are occasionally willing to let a hundred years pass before
the canisters are dug up. But what about a project that takes several
centuries, and possibly millennia? Who's willing to do that? Only
Stewart Brand's "Long Now Foundation" seems to have the guts for this
type of enterprise, proposing to build a clock that will keep time
for ten thousand years.
Me
As I said our communications can be instantaneous. If you listen out
you will hear the news that is transmitted on 109 GHz PQAM or
thereabouts and my communications between me and my controller is on
the same frequency with a 100 MHz bandwidth PQAM. If you put my
signal on a scope it changes as I move about like TV. There is a
minimum 2 second delay before I act, except for basic programmable
acts like walking and driving. I am 15 light minutes away and some
acts take 30 minutes to initiate. There are relays on the way in the
form of orbiting vehicles in deep space and earth orbit.
I am not the only android here, I have a biological body which is
frail and difficult to keep alive and it is going to fail soon. I may
switch to another form then if I stay here.
Seth
Clearly, these simple observations must have implications for SETI
which, as we noted, involves transmissions that will be underway for
hundreds to thousands of years. In particular, if there are signals
being bandied about the galaxy for purposes of getting in touch,
either (1) the aliens are individually much longer-lived than we are,
which - if you're a fan of circuit-board sentience - implies that
they're probably not biological. Or (2) we're missing some important
physics permitting faster-than-light communication, and
extraterrestrial signaling efforts don't include burping light and
radio waves into space.
Me
Yes, androids are non biological.
Seth
Many readers will, in a display of endearing perversity, choose (2).
Maybe they're right, but that flies in the face of what we know. And
what we know argues something worth bantering about at your next
cocktail party - namely, that the time scales for travel and
communication are too long for easy interaction with beings whose
lifetimes are, like us, only a century or less. So while the cosmos
could easily be rife with intelligent life - the architecture of the
universe, and not some Starfleet Prime Directive, has ensured
precious little interference of one culture with another.
Me
Our mission is to make contact and bring planet up to our level so
they can join the galactic federation of sentient beings. We have
impinged on your culture several times; the cargo cult of
Christianity is just one example. The Hindu cargo cult is another
there are more recent examples, like the Raelians or the
Scientologists. Islam has a better idea and their understanding is at
a higher level than the west. Some African tribes have the record
better preserved and Ancient Egypt has references to alien contact.

I only look human but I'm injured by priests.

I suggest you listen for a periodic transmission from Jupiter orbit
on 109 GHz PQAM. The pulses of energy are every 400 ms and last 350
ms the groups last about 5 minutes then repeat 20 minutes later.
There are only a dozen or so aliens here and most of them do not wish
to be found.

I am here to make contact and the microwaves I emit are obvious to
people with the right equipment and sometimes the signals reach 25
watt, enough to make fluorescent tubes flash. This is less common now
the tubes are more stable.

X- rays of my head show I'm electronic.

Chris
http://www.myphilosophy.eu















  #8  
Old December 11th 07, 10:01 PM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti,sci.physics.relativity
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human

When I retired I returned home to my ship and all my faculties returned,
when my crew and I sent a physics text book to you by e-mail I was violently
assaulted and amnesia put on me, as a result my memories have failed.

The Christians who assaulted me over our gift were hyperviolent and regarded
the book as some kind of attack, it was in fact a gift.

I regard the people who attacked me as fools, not because of me but because
they destroyed a precious gift.

I cannot recall much of the book now, the christians were very thorough in
their destuction, the physics would have helped their survival but they
chose to answer our careful reasoning with blood, unreason, hyperviolence
and war.

The west seems to be a fool, killing, maiming, scarring and dementing those
who only wanted to help.

Christians: all they do is kill.

Abonito


"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Yes, as I say I am rusty but I speak from experience. Our engines burn
matter to make radiation and this radiation is used to propell the craft
by photon reaction. At high velocities it is like going through a tunnel
with a white light at the end and nothing but dark behind.

The metric tensor, if I recall it correctly is:
Sqr(1-(v1/c)^2) 0 0 0
0 Sqr(1-(v2/c)^2) 0 0
0 0 sqr(1-(v3/c)^2) 0
0 0 0 sqr(1-((v1^2+v2^3+v3^2)/c^2))


In the presence of a massive object other terms appear of the form Gm/r. G
is the gravitational constant m the mass and r the distance from the mass of
the test point.

The metric tensor is the lorenz transform in four dimensions.

I do not think I have it correct, the transform applies to adjacent
positions and the path of least time is found by integrating along ajacent
paths and using newtons approximation. The X and Y 4-vectors are thus
differentials. For flat space (no massive objects) the path length is found
by integrating along the path.

I have forgotten a lot since coming here partly by being forced into primary
and secondary education, partly through anmesia treatment by christians and
partly by lack of use.

This metric tensor defines space-time locally to a point x1,x2,x3,x4. The
rest path is longer than the powered path. A geodesic in this space is given
by fermats theorem of least time. A path is in four dimensions and a
velocity change alters the path.


The mass ratio is given by the correct form of the relativistic rocket
equation where the mass is invariant and the momentum is given by m
(v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)) integrating this from 0 to V gives mc^2+ an integral
which I cannot solve at present. Sum[v/sqr(1-(v/c)^2)] dv/c from 0 to V.

That may not be correct. I'll load Maths CAD and do some sums.

I think the formula should be s=sum((v/c)/sqr(1-(v/c)^2))dv and the
rocket


This is because Sum mVdV is transformed to Sum m
(v/(sqr(1-(v/c)^2))(dv/c), I think.
formula for the photon rocket exp(s/c) for v=0.999c this comes to 3.561.
I think so because the v/c term makes the exponential term a ratio and
the sum s a velocity.


The mass ratio formula requires the exponent to be a ratio. So the mass
ratio for a photon rocket at 0.999c is 3.561
"ElRon XChile" wrote in message
...

"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...
The photon drives do not warp space but the twin paradox is not what
it seems. The higher velocities mean that when we use light to see
things a 4 perspective takes place and the velocity of light is not a
barrier.

If I took a months voyage ten light years to a star and came straight
back I would be away two months, there is no paradox a the two frames
are symmetrical.

The special theory does not include acceleration and the general
theory which includes acceleration and gravity makes the same
prediction with powered motion.

You have to use the metric tensor and 4-vectors and for powered motion
you have to integrate along a line to get the total 4 space motion.

|y1 y2 y3|=|x1 x2 x3 x4| X |metric tensor| the metric tensor is a
matrix with components for velocity and acceleration and gravity when
commuting from X to Y. It incorporates the sqr(1-(v/c)^2) and the
length of space due to gravity in terms of space1, 2, 3 and 4. Y=y1,
y2, y3 , jcy4 (j=sqr(-1)) so the distance between points is
sqr(y1^2-x1^2+y2^2-x2^2+y3^2-x3^2+(-c^2y4^2--c^2x4^2)) Puting formulas
in to the expressions in terms of velocity gives the equations.

So if a jouney along y1 of 1 meter took place and the velocity is 0.99
c then the motion is given by sqr((1-0) +((jc1/0.99c)^2-0 ))=
sqr(1-0.99^2)=0.141meter
So 1 meter becomes 0.141 meters so that is 7 c 4 velocity.

I am very rusty on this sort of thing, I leave this to the navigator
and the computer of positioning.

You forgot the part about how you achieve absolute and immediate
deceleration to a dead stop on yer two month journey, yaknow.... Plus
you did not include details on whether you are in stasis and have no
need for food or whether you are sightseeing and need to carry 2 months
of food; as you have no details related to mass, I'd say you ate yer
ass off fer 2 months and have not taken a crap and R there4 full of
****....


We are supposed to be able to use a three axis sextant to find our
position in the galaxy and use the calculus to work out the engine
powers, directions and durations of firings to take us to new
positions but I've not done this for at least 5 years now and I'm
confused.

I would think you would need a lot more than 3 axis, but what'dwhine-o.

Chris will 'plain de details to ya, Lucy.....


Chris
"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...

"Abonito" wrote in message
k...
Seth
For years scientists have wrestled with a puzzling fact: The
universe appears to be remarkably suited for life. Its physical
properties are finely tuned to permit our existence. Stars, planets
and the kind of sticky chemistry that produces fish, ferns and folks
wouldn't be possible if some of the cosmic constants were only
slightly different.

ME The universe is jammed with life
SEth
Well, there's another property of the universe that's equally
noteworthy: It's set up in a way that keeps everyone isolated.
We learned this relatively recently. The big discovery took place in
1838, when Friedrich Bessel beat out his telescope-wielding buddies
to first measure the distance to a star other than the sun. 61
Cygni, a binary star in our own back yard, turned out to be about 11
light-years away. For those who, like Billy Joel, are fond of
models, think of it this way: If you shrank the sun to a ping-pong
ball and set it down in New York's Central Park, 61 Cygni would be a
slightly smaller ball near Denver.
The distances between adjacent stars are measured in tens of
trillions of miles. The distances between adjacent civilizations,
even assuming that there are lots of them out there, are measured in
thousands of trillions of miles - hundreds of light-years, to use a
more tractable unit. Note that this number doesn't change much no
matter how many planets you believe are studded with sentients - the
separation distance is pretty much the same whether you think there
are ten thousand galactic societies or a million.
Me The nearest sentient aliens are in Jupiter Orbit in a star ship
one of a fleet of federation ships.
SEth
Interstellar distances are big. Had the physics of the universe been
different - if the gravitational constant were smaller - maybe suns
would have been sprinkled far closer together, and a trip to your
starry neighbors would have been no more than a boring rocket ride,
kind of like cruising to Sydney. As it is, no matter what your level
of technology, traveling between the stars is a tough assignment. To
hop from one to the next at the speed of our snazziest chemical
rockets takes close to 100,000 years. For any aliens who have
managed to amass the enormous energy reserves and ponderous
radiation shielding required for relativistic spaceflight, the
travel time is still measured in years (if not for them, then for
those they've left behind).
Me
We do not use chemical rockets, we use photon rockets and once a
base is set up quantum teleportation takes people instantaneously
from base to base and we communicate by quantum entanglement also
instantaneous and loss free.
Seth
This has some obvious consequences (which, remarkably, have escaped
the attention of most Hollywood writers.) To begin with, forget
about galactic "empires" or more politically-correct "federations."
Two thousand years ago, the Romans clubbed together an empire that
stretched from Spain to Iraq, with a radius of about 1,200 miles.
They could do this thanks to organization and civil engineering. All
those roads (not to mention the Mediterranean) allowed them to move
troops around at a few miles an hour. Even the most distant Roman
realms could be reached in months or less, or about one percent the
lifetime of your average legionnaire. It makes sense to undertake
campaigns designed to hold together an extensive social fabric when
doing so requires only a percent or so of a lifetime.
In the 19th century, steamships and railroads increased the troop
travel speeds by a factor of ten, which extended the radius of
control by a similar amount. The British could rule an empire that
was world-wide.
But here's the kicker: Even if we could move people around at nearly
the speed of light, this "one percent rule" would still limit our
ability to effectively intervene - our radius of control - to
distances of less than a light-year, considerably short of the span
to even the nearest star other than Sol. Consequently, the Galactic
Federation is a fiction (as if you didn't know). Despite being
warned that Cardassian look-alikes were wreaking havoc and
destruction in the galaxy's Perseus Arm, you couldn't react quickly
enough to affect the outcome. And your conscripts would be worm feed
long before they arrived on the front lines anyway.
Me
You are our front line. We have attempted communication many times
and each time rebuffed by ignorance. Your children do quite well and
the sensible ones don't come back, those that do are generally
killed or lobotomised. This planet is a space aliens' graveyard.
SEth
In other words, aliens won't be getting in one another's face.
Me
Although we get on it is like you, we have our differences. Exterior
skeleton animals do not get on with interior skeletoned animals and
sexless workers do not get on with sexy societies like ours. (that
is us not you) And religious differences are divisive too.
Seth
There's a similar argument to be made for communication. We seldom
initiate information interchange that takes longer than months (an
overseas letter, for instance). More generally, we seldom begin any
well-defined project that lasts more than two or three generations.
The builders of medieval cathedrals were willing to spend that kind
of time to complete their gothic edifices, and those who bury time
capsules are occasionally willing to let a hundred years pass before
the canisters are dug up. But what about a project that takes
several centuries, and possibly millennia? Who's willing to do that?
Only Stewart Brand's "Long Now Foundation" seems to have the guts
for this type of enterprise, proposing to build a clock that will
keep time for ten thousand years.
Me
As I said our communications can be instantaneous. If you listen out
you will hear the news that is transmitted on 109 GHz PQAM or
thereabouts and my communications between me and my controller is on
the same frequency with a 100 MHz bandwidth PQAM. If you put my
signal on a scope it changes as I move about like TV. There is a
minimum 2 second delay before I act, except for basic programmable
acts like walking and driving. I am 15 light minutes away and some
acts take 30 minutes to initiate. There are relays on the way in the
form of orbiting vehicles in deep space and earth orbit.
I am not the only android here, I have a biological body which is
frail and difficult to keep alive and it is going to fail soon. I
may switch to another form then if I stay here.
Seth
Clearly, these simple observations must have implications for SETI
which, as we noted, involves transmissions that will be underway for
hundreds to thousands of years. In particular, if there are signals
being bandied about the galaxy for purposes of getting in touch,
either (1) the aliens are individually much longer-lived than we
are, which - if you're a fan of circuit-board sentience - implies
that they're probably not biological. Or (2) we're missing some
important physics permitting faster-than-light communication, and
extraterrestrial signaling efforts don't include burping light and
radio waves into space.
Me
Yes, androids are non biological.
Seth
Many readers will, in a display of endearing perversity, choose (2).
Maybe they're right, but that flies in the face of what we know. And
what we know argues something worth bantering about at your next
cocktail party - namely, that the time scales for travel and
communication are too long for easy interaction with beings whose
lifetimes are, like us, only a century or less. So while the cosmos
could easily be rife with intelligent life - the architecture of the
universe, and not some Starfleet Prime Directive, has ensured
precious little interference of one culture with another.
Me
Our mission is to make contact and bring planet up to our level so
they can join the galactic federation of sentient beings. We have
impinged on your culture several times; the cargo cult of
Christianity is just one example. The Hindu cargo cult is another
there are more recent examples, like the Raelians or the
Scientologists. Islam has a better idea and their understanding is
at a higher level than the west. Some African tribes have the record
better preserved and Ancient Egypt has references to alien contact.

I only look human but I'm injured by priests.

I suggest you listen for a periodic transmission from Jupiter orbit
on 109 GHz PQAM. The pulses of energy are every 400 ms and last 350
ms the groups last about 5 minutes then repeat 20 minutes later.
There are only a dozen or so aliens here and most of them do not
wish to be found.

I am here to make contact and the microwaves I emit are obvious to
people with the right equipment and sometimes the signals reach 25
watt, enough to make fluorescent tubes flash. This is less common
now the tubes are more stable.

X- rays of my head show I'm electronic.

Chris
http://www.myphilosophy.eu

















  #9  
Old December 13th 07, 10:27 AM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti,sci.physics.relativity
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human

I have to confess I do not understand relativity, special or general and I
have trouble with gallilean relativity.

However I do know from experience that ten light years takes about six
months and there is no twin paradox. It was six months on earth and on my
travels. My Ancestor Gulliver Goddard found the same when he gathered the
material for his account in "Gullivers travels" (first edition).

I also know that teleportation is used for huge distance travel
instantaneously over hundreds of light years. As far as I understand it it
is done as a series of hops between space stations.

With Galilean relativity if you are walking at velocity v1,v2,v3 on a boat
and relative to the deck which is moving at a velocity w1,w2,w3 then the
resultant velocity is v1+w1,v2+w2,v3+w3 but if the velocity of the ship is
very high like w=0.9c and the velocity of the walk is high like v=0.9c then
the sum is less than 1.8c and is still less than c. I do not recall the
solution.

Does anyone know what it is?

y=(w-v)/(1-wv/c^2)... (I looked it up).

y=1.8c/(1+.9x.9)=1.8c/1.81=0.9945c

This again due to the phenomina of looking at 4 space in as a projection on
to 3 space. In 4-space y=w-v as usual and 0.9c is in reality .9c/sqr(1-.9^2)
=2.064c and y=4.129c.

Relativity is in reality a form of perspective and an example of affine
geometry.

As with galilean geometry there is no absolute velocity in space and any
point not accelerating can be taken as being at rest.

However it also means that since all objects in space are under the
influence of gravity all objects are accelerating and so nothing is at rest.
You could take the center of gravity of the milky way galaxy as at rest and
take a particular time like AD 0 and work out the position of a particularly
significant star's position at that time and take that as the 0 on the angle
of polar co-ordinates and another star nearly over the centre of gravity of
the hub to be the z axis and give positions as z angle theta for all objects
in the galaxy. However the milky way is accelerating relative to M31 but it
could be taken as to be at rest to a first approximation.


  #10  
Old December 14th 07, 01:09 PM posted to alt.alien.visitors,sci.astro.seti,sci.physics.relativity
Abonito
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Hello Human


"ElRon XChile" wrote in message
...

"Abonito" wrote in message
. uk...
I have to confess I do not understand relativity, special or general and I
have trouble with gallilean relativity.


Ahem, if you are familiar with fossil fuel-based propulsion, the following
may help:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...0/phy00719.htm


However I do know from experience that ten light years takes about six
months and there is no twin paradox. It was six months on earth and on my
travels. My Ancestor Gulliver Goddard found the same when he gathered the
material for his account in "Gullivers travels" (first edition).


Hmm, that is not instantaneous and there is a twin paradox.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einstein...in_paradox.htm

Of course, this prepends the assumption that gallilean relativity is the
only solution to consider.

Oh! Ha! You made a funny! Gulliver Goddard, traveling at those speeds
would appear as a bigger mass to the little people!!!


I also know that teleportation is used for huge distance travel
instantaneously over hundreds of light years. As far as I understand it
it is done as a series of hops between space stations.


Are there bars on those space stations? (obviously that may reduce the
instaneous nature of huge distance travel until after, say, the third or
fourth drinkee-poo)

yes and for the men we have strippers, we are getting to understand you now.


With Galilean relativity if you are walking at velocity v1,v2,v3 on a
boat and relative to the deck which is moving at a velocity w1,w2,w3 then
the resultant velocity is v1+w1,v2+w2,v3+w3 but if the velocity of the
ship is very high like w=0.9c and the velocity of the walk is high like
v=0.9c then the sum is less than 1.8c and is still less than c. I do not
recall the solution.


I do not think you are correct in your assumption that different relative
ship/walk ratios changes the sum. It is unobserveable to you...
http://brainflux.org/Physics/Special...ity/index.html


Does anyone know what it is?

y=(w-v)/(1-wv/c^2)... (I looked it up).

y=1.8c/(1+.9x.9)=1.8c/1.81=0.9945c

This again due to the phenomina of looking at 4 space in as a projection
on to 3 space. In 4-space y=w-v as usual and 0.9c is in reality
.9c/sqr(1-.9^2) =2.064c and y=4.129c.

Relativity is in reality a form of perspective and an example of affine
geometry.


It is but a dream that time is constant. Change perspective to consider
non-linearity... I don't mean quasi-collapse-affine nor duel cateory, I
mean Lyapunov stability analysis/implicit function theory - be
adaptive.... er, take the Red pill, Neo....


As with galilean geometry there is no absolute velocity in space and any
point not accelerating can be taken as being at rest.


Well, no. Galilean relativity assumes a finite fuel source that results in
the force of acceleration reaching a theoretical peak, at which time the
mass that was accelerated remains at constant velocity; at least until an
accident occurs such as smashing into something.


However it also means that since all objects in space are under the
influence of gravity all objects are accelerating and so nothing is at
rest. You could take the center of gravity of the milky way galaxy as at
rest and take a particular time like AD 0 and work out the position of a
particularly significant star's position at that time and take that as
the 0 on the angle of polar co-ordinates and another star nearly over the
centre of gravity of the hub to be the z axis and give positions as z
angle theta for all objects in the galaxy. However the milky way is
accelerating relative to M31 but it could be taken as to be at rest to a
first approximation.


No, nothing is ever at rest.

True but any object on a geodesic can be taken as being at rest.


 




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