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Niven's Smoke Ring
How plausible is Larry Niven's "smoke ring," from the novels "The
Integral Trees" and "Smoke Ring"? Can the gas torus be sustained in that density, or would the gas giant supplying the gas sweep it back up in a relatively short period? Mike Miller, Materials Engineer |
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Niven's Smoke Ring
Mike Miller wrote:
How plausible is Larry Niven's "smoke ring," from the novels "The Integral Trees" and "Smoke Ring"? Can the gas torus be sustained in that density, or would the gas giant supplying the gas sweep it back up in a relatively short period? Well, gas giants don't have free oxygen in this universe as far as we know. So, you've first got to handwave a largely oxygen gas giant. (Based on my exhaustive survey of 4) I'm not completely happy that you can have an accretion disk that small and relatively benign, but I haven't done the numbers. I suspect that if you do them, there will be a couple of reasons why it won't work. Volume of gas from even an oxygen nitrogen gas giant is not high enough. The shear would be much more violent. I'm unhappy about where all the phosphorus, potassium, and all the other elements needed for life come from, and how their cycles work. |
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Niven's Smoke Ring
Ian Stirling wrote in message ...
Well, gas giants don't have free oxygen in this universe as far as we know. So, you've first got to handwave a largely oxygen gas giant. (Based on my exhaustive survey of 4) Well, yes, you do need a mostly oxygen gas giant, but that would describe Uranus (so many puns, so little time) or Neptune. The bulk of their mass is in the form of a water "ice" mantle amounting to several times Earth's mass. With oxygen being the predominant component of water by mass, you could say Uranus and Neptune fit the bill as "largely oxygen gas giants". IIRC, the gas giant supplying the gas torus in the Integral Trees was similar to Neptune in size. However, you don't need that oxygen to be free on the gas giant, not initially. Earth didn't start with an oxygen atmosphere; it was made by life that survived in the original reducing atmosphere. Cracked from water, IIRC. Volume of gas from even an oxygen nitrogen gas giant is not high enough. The shear would be much more violent. The shear would be more violent? Between different 'altitudes' in the gas torus, you mean? I'm unhappy about where all the phosphorus, potassium, and all the other elements needed for life come from, and how their cycles work. Asteroids and other system debris? One thing I don't follow though: why doesn't the gas giant sweep up such a massive gas torus again? How do you strip that much gas in the first place? Mike Miller, Materials Engineer |
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Niven's Smoke Ring
"Mike Miller" wrote in message om... Ian Stirling wrote in message ... One thing I don't follow though: why doesn't the gas giant sweep up such a massive gas torus again? How do you strip that much gas in the first place? Wasn't there a dwarf star somewhere in the system? |
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Niven's Smoke Ring
"do$feratu" wrote in message ...
Wasn't there a dwarf star somewhere in the system? There was a neutron star in the center and a yellow star slightly larger than Sol outside the smoke ring. http://members.optushome.com.au/guests/NSFPhys05.gif It looks like the gas giant was actually DEEP inside the neutron star's Roche limit (which would've been around 1 million kilometers); Niven's math needed some work on several points about the Smoke Ring setting. (For example, the neutron star would've needed to be about 1/10000th of a solar mass to generate the observed orbital period of the smoke ring.) Mike Miller, Materials Engineer |
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Niven's Smoke Ring
Mike Miller wrote:
"do$feratu" wrote in message ... Wasn't there a dwarf star somewhere in the system? There was a neutron star in the center and a yellow star slightly larger than Sol outside the smoke ring. http://members.optushome.com.au/guests/NSFPhys05.gif It looks like the gas giant was actually DEEP inside the neutron star's Roche limit (which would've been around 1 million kilometers); Niven's math needed some work on several points about the Smoke Ring setting. (For example, the neutron star would've needed to be about 1/10000th of a solar mass to generate the observed orbital period of the smoke ring.) Mike Miller, Materials Engineer I'm no expert, but it seems like you are assuming the SR system is still as it was born. Some of this discrepancy might be plausibly attributed to later capture of and/or collisions between celestial objects..? Just thinking out loud. |
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