Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

Paul R. Mays wrote:


Thats a start but theres a much longer list....

Where is solid measureable evidence to which a carbon dataing protocol
can be applied? Speculations which support your speculations are not
evidence. Quotations from ancient scraps are not evidence. Ancient
writing could be bull****, fairytales or the truth. In the absence of
solid evidence you have nothing.

Bob Kolker

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:


As for the not finding evidence that is completely
convincing I can fathom the alteration of the land
masses of today that could explain the lack of
dateable evidence.

snipped everything in the middle

Failure to produce hard convincing evidence will cause you to hanker
after Floods of biblical proportions. That is a stupid, stupid thing to do.

Bob Kolker


both of you (paul and bob) should possibly consider consulting a environmental
geology handbook before speculating any further on glaciation episodes or their
effects. you both are half-right on many of your points, just a few little gaps
in historical information that could clear up some of your own questions is all.
:-)

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message ...
Paul R. Mays wrote:


Thats a start but theres a much longer list....

Where is solid measureable evidence to which a carbon dataing protocol
can be applied? Speculations which support your speculations are not
evidence. Quotations from ancient scraps are not evidence. Ancient
writing could be bull****, fairytales or the truth. In the absence of
solid evidence you have nothing.

Bob Kolker

someone from one of the science newsgroups ought to weigh in here with
some authority, but isn't correlated carbon dating extremely accurate
for this time period? edkookradian speculations are way off the mark
here.

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:


As for the not finding evidence that is completely
convincing I can fathom the alteration of the land
masses of today that could explain the lack of
dateable evidence.

You could also chalk it up to the Glacier Fairy too. You cannot
substitute an unsubstantiated guess for a fact. Lack of evidence is just
that. And until the evidence stops lacking your speculations have no
basis whatsoever.




There's a good argument that the catastrophic event
that caused the DNA Bottle neck was also the trigger
event of the last Ice Age and rewarm cycle. That was
a super volcano in Indonesia http://zyx.org/TOBA.html
around 75 k ago...

Now If a reasonable civilization were to form after the
event they have 40 to 55 k years to develop a
city based culture. Now that culture has limited
availability to place cities... The northern and southern
hemispheres are Ice covered. The mountains along
the equatorial areas are ice capped and 500 to 800 feet
higher above sea level than today. The coast line and
all river systems are in vastly different locations . Most
land that is usable would be in the low lands with smaller
hamlets and villages scattered to the edges of the ice fields
and even on the ice fields.

Now along about 30 to 20 k ago the ice receded and this
happened very quick which makes me think there was a second
catastrophic event of some type.

You can think anything you want to. But no one will take you seriously
until you produce evidence. No evidence leaves you ten feet in the air
with nothing to stand on.


This melt changed the face
of the planet.

You are invokaing a Flood maybe? Where is the evidence? You should not
assert as fact anything for which evidence is lacking. No evidence, no
fact. It is as simple as that

Failure to produce hard convincing evidence will cause you to hanker
after Floods of biblical proportions. That is a stupid, stupid thing to
do.

Bob Kolker



There is a great deal of evidence... but of course the concept
of convincing is another thing all together...

I will not go through all the evidence but a bit of reading will
give massive amounts... Now is that evidence convincing to you?
I have no idea... I have no idea of what your capacity to
dot the I's are, but they seem a bit limited... A lot of people have
seen enough evidence to be convinced... A lot...
And of course I could give a **** if your convinced or not...
Someone asked if I anyone thought there was a civilization
back before 13 k and I have read enough and seen enough
evidence to convince me that we are missing something big
around 10 to 20 k ago...

As far as a great flood of biblical proportions... That's a
absolute provable event.. Not quite as the bible mentions,
along with many other cultures that predate biblical mention
of a flood myth.... If you lived in a population area of say
10 million people scattered over 50 miles and the sea rises
to cover the region with 500 feet of sea water I might consider
that a flood of biblical proportions if I lived on Main Street...

Melt just the North American Ice sheet of 30 k ago and
main street is under 100 feet.. add the European and southern
sheets and you have a flood that still today covers a large
percentage of what would have been usable lands before
the melt...

Again.. I suggest you read a bit and then explain what your
limited view of what constitutes evidence is and then some may
be able to point you to the evidence they consider valid...

http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php

Has a bunch of titles to get you started...

Now .. If you make the choice to not read and research
the evidentiary claims provided by at least 20 authors
then say "hey everyone, look at me, I don't seek evidence,
I don't wish to look for evidence, I don't want to even be
presented an Idea that I have to research, so that means
there is no evidence..." then don't expect me or others
on some minor news server to spoon feed you every
little piece of the large body of evidence that you have
no idea exists....

Paul R. Mays
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Some where within the Quantum State
Http://Paul.Mays.Com
http://paul.mays.com/resume.html

"The skeptic will say, 'It may well be true
that this system of equations is reasonable
from a logical standpoint, but this does not
prove that it corresponds to nature.' You
are right, dear skeptic. Experience alone
can decide on truth. "
- Albert Einstein

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:

Cities under a few hundred feet of water and 90 or so
feet of ocean debris can wipe a few traces.. and how
much of a trace would you say a 200 foot tall stone
building would leave... after being scraped over by a
couple miles of ice.... for a 1000 years or so...

You have not produced the means to distinguish between no such city
ever, and a city wiped clean. In the absence of evidence you have not a
square yard to stand on. All you offer us if feeble speculations not
backed up by anything other than your foolish fantisizing.

Bob Kolker



I'm not the expert and I make no claims.. I have read and considered
many areas of studies and I have found reasonable evidence provided
by many writers that actually got off their asses ( unlike you) and
researched the possibilities... Just because you have a limited mental
ability to comprehend evidence presented by many well informed and
respected researchers does not mean that a simple layman as I would
waste my time repeating the writings of those that have spent their
lives actually doing the research in order to spoon feed your knowledge
void.

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/remnants.htm
http://www.grahamhancock.com/news/index.php
http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm
http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html


That's a start but there's a much longer list....

In article , DrPostman
wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003 07:06:28 -0700, (Jack) wrote:


the same glaciers that flash froze all those mammoths?


Devious fiends!

I demand an FBI investigation into this stonewalling!


-=-=-=-=-

In article , Paul R. Mays
wrote:

"Carl R. Osterwald" wrote in message
...
In article , DrPostman
wrote:

On 9 Oct 2003 16:54:06 -0700, (Double-A) wrote:

(Tom Kirke) wrote in message
...
====================================

WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION
THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO?

By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there
was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some
of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations.
If you disagree point to a city that existed then.

tom


Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces.

Double-A


You would be wrong there. If they existed there would
be evidence of the fires in those huts, the garbage thrown
away as well as many of the tools they used.

Mounds of evidence!


-=-=-=-=-

Only back to the time that the ice would have
wiped the high lands and the ocean then swallows
the lowlands after the melt...

And if they had made stuff from steel, after this time
you would find iron oxide dust scattered over miles
of lands by moving mile thick sheets of ice....


HUGE POOLS OF MOLTEN STEEL!!


-=-=-=-=-

Paul R. Mays wrote:
"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:


As for the not finding evidence that is completely
convincing I can fathom the alteration of the land
masses of today that could explain the lack of
dateable evidence.

You could also chalk it up to the Glacier Fairy too. You cannot
substitute an unsubstantiated guess for a fact. Lack of evidence is just
that. And until the evidence stops lacking your speculations have no
basis whatsoever.




There's a good argument that the catastrophic event
that caused the DNA Bottle neck was also the trigger
event of the last Ice Age and rewarm cycle. That was
a super volcano in Indonesia http://zyx.org/TOBA.html
around 75 k ago...

Now If a reasonable civilization were to form after the
event they have 40 to 55 k years to develop a
city based culture. Now that culture has limited
availability to place cities... The northern and southern
hemispheres are Ice covered. The mountains along
the equatorial areas are ice capped and 500 to 800 feet
higher above sea level than today. The coast line and
all river systems are in vastly different locations . Most
land that is usable would be in the low lands with smaller
hamlets and villages scattered to the edges of the ice fields
and even on the ice fields.

Now along about 30 to 20 k ago the ice receded and this
happened very quick which makes me think there was a second
catastrophic event of some type.

You can think anything you want to. But no one will take you seriously
until you produce evidence. No evidence leaves you ten feet in the air
with nothing to stand on.


This melt changed the face

of the planet.

You are invokaing a Flood maybe? Where is the evidence? You should not
assert as fact anything for which evidence is lacking. No evidence, no
fact. It is as simple as that

Failure to produce hard convincing evidence will cause you to hanker
after Floods of biblical proportions. That is a stupid, stupid thing to

do.

Bob Kolker




There is a great deal of evidence... but of course the concept
of convincing is another thing all together...

Ancient writings are NOT evidence. Evidence is physical and measurable.

I ask you for the beef, and you keep giving me baloney




I will not go through all the evidence but a bit of reading will
give massive amounts... Now is that evidence convincing to you?
I have no idea...


If it isn't physical and it isn't measurable it is BULL****. Is that
plain enough?

You want proofs of Floods. Find human habitations buried under dozens or
hundreds of feet of alluvial mud residue. That is evidence.

Bob Kolker

Paul R. Mays wrote:

I'm not the expert and I make no claims.. I have read and considered
many areas of studies and I have found reasonable evidence provided
by many writers that actually got off their asses ( unlike you) and
researched the possibilities...

Where is the physical evidence? Can you cite it. Is it vetted by
independent researchers. A simple yes or no will do. If yes, cite it. I
want stuff that appears in reputable refereed journals (Velikovsky types
are not wanted). I wan't stuff that is vetted and verified by at least
two independent researchers or groups of researchers. Findings with
physical measurements and chemical analysis are particularly welcome.
Findings made by reputable archeologists, paleontologist and geoligsts
are welcome. Findings by crackpots looking for Noah's Ark is not welcome.

If there is isn't a carbon dating protocol buried in the evidence, then
it is probably bogus.

Bob Kolker

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:


Thats a start but theres a much longer list....

Where is solid measureable evidence to which a carbon dataing protocol
can be applied? Speculations which support your speculations are not
evidence. Quotations from ancient scraps are not evidence. Ancient
writing could be bull****, fairytales or the truth. In the absence of
solid evidence you have nothing.

Bob Kolker


By that short writing its obvious you have no idea of
the subject..

There's a bit more that "Quotations from ancient scraps"

But you'll just continue to rant like a buffoon instead of
actually reading the afore mentioned reading material

Here's a few items you might read ... but I kinda doubt it...

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/remnants.htm
http://www.grahamhancock.com/news/index.php
http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm
http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html