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  #21  
Old July 13th 05, 07:02 PM
Jonathan Silverlight
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In message .com,
writes
To Jonathan

Change in orbital orientation to fixed axial orientation,in other words
the Earth's axis remains fixed as does its Equatorial orientation at 90
degrees to the polar axis


What other angle could it be? :-)

and the Earth's orbital orientation to the
Sun causes seasonal changes.

This is not at all difficult and I assure you it is important for if
you cannot attribute the correct causes for seasonal change after 500
years of heliocentricity,it sure looks dumb in an era that wants more
information on climate change.

http://homepage.mac.com/tarashnat/as.../0001-08a.jpeg


I can't imagine why you keep posting that link. How many times is it
now? Twice in one posting, for sure :-)
We know that the stars appear to rotate around the north celestial pole
once in 23 hours 56 minutes, and unless you wait for about 500 years you
won't spot any change without instruments. Because the pole does move.
Perhaps I'll follow up why Rheticus didn't like the explanation -
another point you ignored.


The original heliocentrists worked off orbital motion of the Earth
alone to infer heliocentricity which is why I include the motion of the
Earth taking a faster and inner orbital circuit to Jupiter and Saturn
in order to get people used to the change in orbital orientation
passing through fixed axial orientation in generating seasonal changes
-

http://www.opencourse.info/astronomy...n_planets/jupi
ter_saturn_retro.gif


Yet another repeated link :-)


The monomaniac stuff is all yours or rather Newton's inferior view of
how retrograde motion is explained in direct conflict with the early
heliocentrists such as Kepler and Galileo.

"For to the earth they appear sometimes direct, sometimes stationary,
nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are always seen
direct, and to proceed with a motion nearly uniform, that is to say, a
little swifter in the perihelion and a little slower in the aphelion
distances,"

http://members.tripod.com/~gravitee/phaenomena.htm


Exactly. Just why are you repeating this? Or do you think it has some
meaning other than the fact that retrograde motion is only observable
from a planet orbiting a sun?

The direct cause of a false attribution for seasonal changes is
directly related to that Newtonian rubbish for the early heliocentrists
recognised retrograde for what it was directly without appealing to a
resolution by placiong a sun based observer and anyone looking at the
motion of Jupiter and Saturn from an orbital perspective above can see
how the first heliocentrists infered the heliocentric sytstem without
that unethical framehopping jump to the Sun.

This is why in the 21st century I have to fight the heliocentric case
for seasonal changes by focusing on the Earth's orbital orientation
changes rather than being stuck with axial tilt variations derived
through 18th century cataloguers.


Yet again, both the orbital orientation (relative to the sun or the
stars, it doesn't matter, and you failed to answer this) is fixed, and
so is the axial orientation.
The seasons are mainly due to the axis of a planet being inclined to its
orbit, so the day/night ratio changes as the planet goes round the Sun.
That is why Jupiter has only small seasonal changes (with an inclination
of 3 degrees) while the Earth, Mars, Saturn and Titan (in the plane of
Saturn's equator) have marked seasons.


Who gives a damn who does this as long as a correct attribution to
seasonal changes is brought forward for consideration,you protect your
long dead celebrities but I have an eye of coontemporary policy and a
legacy that future generations might thank us for.But not before this
obvious error is rectified and fast.


As the old joke goes, you aren't even a household legend in your own
household. You certainly won't be remembered.
  #22  
Old July 13th 05, 11:27 PM
George Dishman
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wrote in message
oups.com...


George Dishman wrote:
"Llanzlan Klazmon" wrote in message
7.6...
"George Dishman" wrote in
:

Jonathan, I read your response but I think you
credit Gerald with too much understanding.

wrote in message
oups.com...
To Jonathan
...
That shadow/light division changes in accordance with Kepler's second
law (see first diagram) thereby generating the Equation of Time
differential between the natural day and the 24 hour clock day and
more importantly seasonal variations from a global perspective
rather than the pathetic winter/summer hemispherical descriptions.

Read that again: "seasonal variations from a global
perspective rather than the pathetic winter/summer
hemispherical descriptions."

AFAICS, Gerald is saying that if it is summer in
the UK (as it is now, I know, I'm here), it is
also summer in Australia and the widely held
belief that they are six months out of phase is
erroneous! Maybe one of our antipodean contributors
could perform a scientific experiment and pop his
head out of the window to check for us :-)

Just carried out your experiment. Definitely winter here and I'm not
too
far from Australia. Looks like Gerald's hypothesis is empirically
disproved. Well who'da thought?


Marvellous, thank you Llanzlan. Can you
explain those two observations Gerald?


Most people have enough common sense to realise that the Earth axial
orientation is constantly pointed towards Polaris therefore the Equator
at 90 degrees to the axis will also remain fixed.


True, many people know that the axis of the Earth's
_rotation_ currently passes close to Polaris:

http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/umi-t.html

Probably somewhat fewer also know that the axis of
the Earth's _orbit_ passes close to Nu Draconis:

http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/dra-t.html

Guess what the angle between them is.


The cause in seasonal changes from a global perspective is the change
in orbital orientation of the Earth to this fixed axial orientation and
it has nothing to do with any perceived tilt of the axis to the orbital
plane or to the Sun.


If the seasons depended only on the orbital motion
then when the Earth was at perihelion it would be
summer in both the UK and Australia but as you have
just been told, it is currently summer in the UK but
winter in Australia. What you are trying to tell me
is therefore unquestionably wrong no matter how
arrogantly you state that opinion.


The politicians and most everyone else have noticed a climatic
imbalance or climate change as it is currently called,these same people
are faced with scientists who cannot even determine what causes the
natural seasonal variations for anyone who finds reason to argue with
me cannot consider themselves to be scientific in any way.


The scientific method requires our views to be drawn
from observation of reality, and the observation, as
you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT
coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely
because my arguments are based purely on science
that you cannot refute them, and you never will until
you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere
is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern
hemisphere.

George


  #23  
Old July 13th 05, 11:29 PM
Jonathan Silverlight
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In message , George Dishman
writes

True, many people know that the axis of the Earth's
_rotation_ currently passes close to Polaris:

http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/umi-t.html

Probably somewhat fewer also know that the axis of
the Earth's _orbit_ passes close to Nu Draconis:

http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/dra-t.html


Yet another bookmark for my ridiculously large collection :-)
Thanks, George.
  #24  
Old July 14th 05, 01:13 PM
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Jonathan Silverlight wrote:
In message .com,


The seasons are mainly due to the axis of a planet being inclined to its
orbit, so the day/night ratio changes as the planet goes round the Sun.



Scientists,in describing the cause of seasonal change,are focusing on
the wrong orientation for common sense dictates that the axial tilt is
fixed as does not change -

http://homepage.mac.com/tarashnat/as.../0001-08a.jpeg

Assuming people would actually like to know what causes seasonal
changes from a global rather than a hemispherical perspective,the
answer lies in the changing orbital orientation to the Sun.

Equatorial orientation or hemispherical variations in the Sun's
altitude is a chronic symptom of that awful maneuvering by 18tyh
century cataloguers.

At other times you could all sit back and pretend not to see but it
really,really does not take much to see how orbital motion and
orientation changes against a fixed axial orientation.If you are so
dumb that you imagine a non existent axial tilt component to the
orbital plane as an explantion for seasonal changes then be my guest
because although the variation is orbital orientation is initially
tricky to become famaliar with it becomes an easy and comfortable
explanation after a while.

Your empirical explanation,otoh,sticks out like a sore thumb.

  #25  
Old July 14th 05, 04:57 PM
external usenet poster
 
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George Dishman wrote:
The scientific method requires our views to be drawn
from observation of reality, and the observation, as
you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT
coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely
because my arguments are based purely on science
that you cannot refute them, and you never will until
you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere
is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern
hemisphere.

George


To describe seasonal changes using an astronomical perspective,the
change is due to the orbital orientation of the Earth changing through
fixed axial orientation.

The first heliocentrists jettisoned the illusion caused by the Earth's
axial motion and orientation and treated orbital motion as an
indepedent motion.This is how they infered heliocentricity by
perceiving apparent retrograde as simply the Earth inner orbital
circuit to the outer planets.

http://www.opencourse.info/astronomy...turn_retro.gif


The change in orbital orientation to the Sun is just an extension of
that indepedent motion that can be enjoyed through the above sequence
of motions using the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn as a gauge for the
heliocentric motion of the Earth.

If you believe the Earth has an axial tilt variation then you are a
geocentrist because anybody with a shread of common sense knows that
the Earth's axis is more or less fixed and subsequently so is
Equatorial orientation.

Listen carefully,the Sun does not bob up and down against the equator
nor does the Earth tilt up and down towards the Sun causing the
seasons,the orbital orientation of the Earth passing through fixed
axial orientation generates the seasons.

This is a new insight or rather it is one that emerges from the work of
the early heliocentrists whereas your view is pure 18th century
maneuvering in destroying the exquisite Equation of Time principles
for the convenience of the celestial sphere and the Newtonian agenda.

  #26  
Old July 14th 05, 08:53 PM
Jonathan Silverlight
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Posts: n/a
Default

In message .com,
writes


George Dishman wrote:
The scientific method requires our views to be drawn
from observation of reality, and the observation, as
you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT
coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely
because my arguments are based purely on science
that you cannot refute them, and you never will until
you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere
is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern
hemisphere.

George


To describe seasonal changes using an astronomical perspective,the
change is due to the orbital orientation of the Earth changing through
fixed axial orientation.


OK, one more time then I give up :-) Change in orientation relative to
what?

The first heliocentrists jettisoned the illusion caused by the Earth's
axial motion and orientation and treated orbital motion as an
indepedent motion.


Are you saying it isn't independent? Or that somehow the idea has been
lost since the time of Copernicus?
Axial motion of the planets is completely separate from orbital motion,
and the period of axial rotation of the planets varies from a few hours
to more than a year. But even if a planet was tidally locked, you would
still observe retrograde motion of the outer planets.

Listen carefully,the Sun does not bob up and down against the equator
nor does the Earth tilt up and down towards the Sun causing the
seasons,the orbital orientation of the Earth passing through fixed
axial orientation generates the seasons.

This is a new insight


But it isn't :-) It's garbled, but that is essentially what causes the
seasons. But you have this fixed idea that the seasons are caused by the
changing distance of the Earth from the Sun - at least, I assume that's
why you keep posting that link to
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/images/04f15.jpg.

destroying the exquisite Equation of Time principles
for the convenience of the celestial sphere and the Newtonian agenda.


Not again :-) Yet again, the Equation of Time is a result of a
combination of axial tilt and an elliptical orbit. No more and no less.
  #27  
Old July 15th 05, 07:55 AM
external usenet poster
 
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Default



Jonathan Silverlight wrote:
In message .com,
writes


George Dishman wrote:
The scientific method requires our views to be drawn
from observation of reality, and the observation, as
you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT
coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely
because my arguments are based purely on science
that you cannot refute them, and you never will until
you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere
is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern
hemisphere.

George


To describe seasonal changes using an astronomical perspective,the
change is due to the orbital orientation of the Earth changing through
fixed axial orientation.


OK, one more time then I give up :-) Change in orientation relative to
what?

The first heliocentrists jettisoned the illusion caused by the Earth's
axial motion and orientation and treated orbital motion as an
indepedent motion.


Are you saying it isn't independent? Or that somehow the idea has been
lost since the time of Copernicus?
Axial motion of the planets is completely separate from orbital motion,
and the period of axial rotation of the planets varies from a few hours
to more than a year. But even if a planet was tidally locked, you would
still observe retrograde motion of the outer planets.

Listen carefully,the Sun does not bob up and down against the equator
nor does the Earth tilt up and down towards the Sun causing the
seasons,the orbital orientation of the Earth passing through fixed
axial orientation generates the seasons.

This is a new insight


But it isn't :-) It's garbled, but that is essentially what causes the
seasons. But you have this fixed idea that the seasons are caused by the
changing distance of the Earth from the Sun - at least, I assume that's
why you keep posting that link to
http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/images/04f15.jpg.

destroying the exquisite Equation of Time principles
for the convenience of the celestial sphere and the Newtonian agenda.


Not again :-) Yet again, the Equation of Time is a result of a
combination of axial tilt and an elliptical orbit. No more and no less.


The Equation of Time is the bridge between natural noon and clock noon
along a point of longitude from North to South Pole, in other words
there is no hemispherical differences that require a division between
summer/winter or where the Sun is against the Equator.

The Equation of Time is therefore a product of changing orbital
orientation as axial rotation is passing through it.

18th century cataloguers introduced an axial tilt component to the
Earth in respect to the Sun in the form of the 'analemma' but it is
just a useless fudge to make the celestial sphere fit with terrestial
longitudes.The reason scientists,after 500 years of
heliocentricity,can't attribute the correct cause for seasonal
variations is because those numbskulls a few centuries ago altered an
exquisite principle by introducing a non existent axial tilt
component,you want to see garbled ,try the NASA expalantion-

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/as...s/980116c.html

This is actually serious business and extremely newsworthy given the
reliance on an accurate asssement of climate change begins with a
correct attribution for seasonal changes.Scientists are required to
drop this odd variation in axial tilt and keep that orientation fixed
like most people with a shread of common sense would.

http://homepage.mac.com/tarashnat/as.../0001-08a.jpeg

Because it is common sense does not mean that it is any less exciting
for a tremendous amount of astronomical material is lost with the
ridiculous contemporary setup.

Be as sour as you like but there may be decent people here who are
prepared to become astronomers from being mere cataloguers .

  #28  
Old July 15th 05, 04:53 PM
George Dishman
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Default


wrote in message
oups.com...


George Dishman wrote:
The scientific method requires our views to be drawn
from observation of reality, and the observation, as
you have now discovered, is that the seasons do NOT
coincide between the hemispheres. It is precisely
because my arguments are based purely on science
that you cannot refute them, and you never will until
you can explain why summer in the northern hemisphere
is OBSERVED to coincide with winter in the southern
hemisphere.


To describe seasonal changes using an astronomical perspective,the
change is due to the orbital orientation of the Earth changing through
fixed axial orientation.


Those words are virtually unintelligible so I'll go
back to what you said earlier from which I believe
you mean the seasons are caused by the varying
distance of the Earth from the Sun (and not it's
'orientation') due to Kepler's First Law which is
independent of the planet's rotation:

wrote in message
oups.com...
To Jonathan

....
That shadow/light division changes in accordance with Kepler's second
law (see first diagram) thereby generating the Equation of Time
differential between the natural day and the 24 hour clock day and more
importantly seasonal variations from a global perspective rather than
the pathetic winter/summer hemispherical descriptions.


snip

If you believe the Earth has an axial tilt variation


Nobody has mentioned variation in this context, the
tilt is fixed because the axis of rotation is fixed
near Polaris while the axis of the orbital motion is
fixed near Nu Draconis.

then you are a
geocentrist because anybody with a shread of common sense knows that
the Earth's axis is more or less fixed and subsequently so is
Equatorial orientation.


I have recommended before that, if you intend to
insult people, you should check your dictionary
first. I have already posted a reply in which I
explained to you what the words "geocentric" and
"heliocentric" mean but it appears you haven't
learned the lesson. Your misuse of the term shows
nothing more than your own ignorance.

Listen carefully,the Sun does not bob up and down against the equator
nor does the Earth tilt up and down towards the Sun causing the
seasons,


Read my previous post again where I already told
you that. However, without those or the _fixed_
tilt of the rotational axis compared to the orbital
axis, you are incapable of explaining why it is
winter in Australia when it is summer in the UK,
your are incapable of explaining when the shadow
of a telegraph pole at noon is longer in winter
than in summer.

the orbital orientation of the Earth passing through fixed
axial orientation generates the seasons.


Again, your words are meaningless, the only useful
meaning I can ascribe to your phrase "the orbital
orientation of the Earth" would be fixed on Nu
Draconis so doesn't pass through anything because
it doesn't move at all.

This is a new insight ...


Call it what you like, it is wrong. If you really
are talking about the second law and not the first,
it requires the season to be summer in Australia
in July as you suggested a few posts back, and
that is contradicted by reality. Nobody will do
anything but pity your ignorance until you can
resolve that.

George


  #29  
Old July 15th 05, 09:13 PM
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Default

To George/Jonathan

Not once in all these years has one single person acknowledged how the
pre-Copernican equable 24 hour day using the Equation of Time
principles was adapted by the early heliocentrists to the principle of
constant and independent rotation at 15 degrees per hour and 24
hours/360 degrees in total .Currently only axial rotation to the
celestial sphere at 23 hours 56 min 04 sec is recognised as the
rotational value through 360 degrees.

Not once in the past week has one single person acknowledged that the
contemporary attribution for seasonal change exists with the way the
Earth turns in its orbital motion against a fixed axial orientation and
in accordance with Kepler's second law .

I can do no more than point out that if axial orientation is fixed then
so is the Equatorial orientation and it cannot affect any changes in
the seasons.To imagine otherwise,in the form of axial variations to the
orbital plane,highlights the pandemic nature of thinking that
originated with 17th and 18th century cataloguers.

It is frightening that you and the other guy as representative of
really big institutions would fight to retain something that is by
nature a step above a flat Earth in the form of hemispherical
differences between summer and winter explained by axial tilt.I would
not appeal to you again and will take this material elsewhere for truly
it is not difficult to understand beyond the initial
unfamiliarity.Axial tilt is fixed so keep it and Equatorial orientation
fixed -

http://homepage.mac.com/tarashnat/as.../0001-08a.jpeg

There are over 42 million hits on google for climate change and not one
single scientist,as yet, can identify the correct attribution for
cyclical seasonal changes in climate.Maybe they are like you and get
some perverse pleasure in sticking with reasoning that is slightly
better than a flat and stationary Earth but the chances are they have
overlooked the misconduct of 18th century cataloguers in fudging so
much and they may even recognise the pride in the words of Abraham
Lincoln -


"I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors, and I shall
adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views."

  #30  
Old July 15th 05, 10:14 PM
George Dishman
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Posts: n/a
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wrote in message
oups.com...
....
"I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors, and I shall
adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views."


Then when will you accept that the seasons in
the hemispheres differ now that Klazmon has
confirmed that it is currently winter in the
southern hemisphere and I have confirmed it
is summer here in northern hemisphere?

You continue to preach a message that has
been proven to be wrong beyond all possible
doubt and you will consequently continue to
be ignored by those who know the facts.

George


 




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