Lighter/simpler turbo pump

I have been wondering about a turbo pump that consists of a rotary
sprinkler come Catherine wheel physically situated within the combustion
chamber. This should not inhibit regenerative cooling. It is integral,
self cooling, should improve mixing and combustion, requires no
secondary combustion or gas generation and is much much lighter. In
essence it is just a fancy self powering injector.

Thoughts? Has this been done before?

Pete.

In the early 1960s, Rocketdyne considered a "pinwheel
rocket pump"--which sounds pretty close to what you are
suggesting. I always thought it was potentially a good
idea, but I don't think the Rocketdyne pinwheel got much
past the briefing chart (before viewgraphs) stage.

I agree with you that the greatest need for component
development for space transports is the rocket engine.
Rocket engines are basically simple and should go a
long time between overhauls, but don't. There are some
other things about rocket engines that come to mind when
integrated with the total vehicle--but that will have to wait
until I publish our newest concept that depends upon a
number of system "design tricks." A hint: these design
tricks enable a challenging, but, IMO, feasible, low empty
mass for a very large vehicle--a marriage of a number of
earlier design concepts. :)

Best regards,
Len
PanAero, Inc.
(change x to len)
http://www.tour2space.com

In article . com,
"Len" wrote:

There are some
other things about rocket engines that come to mind when
integrated with the total vehicle--but that will have to wait
until I publish our newest concept that depends upon a
number of system "design tricks." A hint: these design
tricks enable a challenging, but, IMO, feasible, low empty
mass for a very large vehicle--a marriage of a number of
earlier design concepts. :)

Len, please quit teasing us. You're driving me batty, and probably
others too. When do you expect to be able to publish even a brief
overview?

Thanks,
- Joe

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Joseph J. Strout Check out the Mac Web Directory: |
| http://www.macwebdir.com |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'

Allow me a little fun Joe. The past two weeks have been
spent getting my messy accounting cleaned up. Beancounting
is my least favorite and least productive activity. I not
only intend to flesh out the new concept as soon as possible,
but I am anxious to do so.

And thanks for your interest. Sometimes I wonder if there is
anyone out there.

Best regards,
Len
PanAero, Inc.
(change x to len)
http://www.tour2space.com

"Pete Lynn" :

I have been wondering about a turbo pump that consists of a rotary
sprinkler come Catherine wheel physically situated within the combustion
chamber. This should not inhibit regenerative cooling. It is integral,
self cooling, should improve mixing and combustion, requires no
secondary combustion or gas generation and is much much lighter. In
essence it is just a fancy self powering injector.

I am having problems figuring out what you mean in design. Could you supply
more details?

Earl Colby Pottinger

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

"Earl Colby Pottinger" wrote in message
...
"Pete Lynn" :

I have been wondering about a turbo pump that consists of a rotary
sprinkler come Catherine wheel physically situated within the
combustion chamber. This should not inhibit regenerative cooling.
It is integral, self cooling, should improve mixing and combustion,
requires no secondary combustion or gas generation and is much
much lighter. In essence it is just a fancy self powering injector.

I am having problems figuring out what you mean in design. Could
you supply more details?

Going back to the rotary rocket engine concept, basically a rocket on
the end of a high speed rotating arm with the nozzle angled such that
the propellants become self pumping. One might miniaturize such a
rotary rocket, design it solely for propellant pumping, and place it
directly within the combustion chamber of a much larger rocket. This
might be considered as a liquid propellant Catherine wheel driving an
integral centrifugal pump.

Because the power required for pumping propellants is much much less
than that produced by the rocket at large, the miniature rocket nozzles
at the tips of the rotary sprinkler need provide very little thrust,
they only need sufficient power to replace that of a turbo pump turbine.
These miniature rocket engines might look like fancy flame holders on
the end of a centrifugal pump which produce a minimal level of net
thrust.

Obviously this internal Catherine wheel could also be used to power
external centrifugal pumps, (necessary for LH2, and perhaps serious LOX
regenerative cooling), hydraulics, etcetera. The physical size of this
Catherine wheel powered sprinkler might be smaller than a turbo pump
turbine, and not need all the shrouding, ducting, gasifying, etcetera.
Within acceptable tip speeds 100MPa would be possible, so there is some
room to move. Obviously LH2 would require external pumping stages.

Another variation on this theme is an impulse Pelton wheel type system
where the internal centrifugal pump has regeneratively cooled impulse
blades at the tip. Separate injector nozzles on the wall of the rocket
combustion chamber might be directed at this impulse turbine.

One of he general themes of this approach is that the turbo pump
turbine, with appropriate design, can be situated within the rocket
combustion chamber, side stepping the need for a number of secondary
systems.

Pete.

Len wrote:

In the early 1960s, Rocketdyne considered a "pinwheel
rocket pump"--which sounds pretty close to what you are
suggesting. I always thought it was potentially a good
idea, but I don't think the Rocketdyne pinwheel got much
past the briefing chart (before viewgraphs) stage.



The original powerplant for the Northrop XP-79 flying-wing fighter was
to be the "Rotojet" rocket motor; it had a total of four combustion
chambers (two high thrust and two low thrust) mounted at slight angles
to the main part of the engine's thrust axis on a rotating assembly, so
that this multiple combustion chamber assembly would spin and power the
engine's turbopumps in the main stationary part of the engine via a
drive shaft. Trying to get the fuel and oxidizer (aniline and RFNA,
which were hypergolic) to the combustion chambers via rotary fuel supply
feeders proved impossible to accomplish safely, and the motor was
canceled and replace by two small turbojets on the XP-79B prototype.
The Rotojet was a classic example of being too clever for your own good
when it comes to nifty engineering ideas.
Northrop tried to pooh-pooh the idea that the aircraft, named the
"Flying Ram" was actually intended to ram enemy bombers in their tail
assembly to destroy them...until a piece of Northrop official company
artwork surfaced showing it doing exactly that.
Sure...ram a He-177 in the tail in a magnesium aircraft full of aniline
and RFNA...Northrop had managed to design something that made the Me-163
Komet look safe. :-D

Pat

"Pete Lynn" wrote in message
...
I have been wondering about a turbo pump that consists of a rotary
sprinkler come Catherine wheel physically situated within the combustion
chamber. This should not inhibit regenerative cooling. It is integral,
self cooling, should improve mixing and combustion, requires no
secondary combustion or gas generation and is much much lighter. In
essence it is just a fancy self powering injector.

Thoughts? Has this been done before?

Pete.


I have worked out a few details on this sort of thing.
Conceptually, kilobar combustion pressures are possible,
which shows that I don't have a firm handle on the theory.
1,500 psi seems possible with hydrogen.

Working on this general type thrust chamber is roughly 219
on my list of 500 things I need to do urgently.

"Len" wrote:

I agree with you that the greatest need for component
development for space transports is the rocket engine.
Rocket engines are basically simple and should go a
long time between overhauls, but don't.

Nuclear reactors are theoretically simple, but in practice they are
not. Simplicity of concept does not equate to simplicity of design,
construction, operation, or maintenance.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

"Len" wrote:
Allow me a little fun Joe. The past two weeks have been
spent getting my messy accounting cleaned up. Beancounting
is my least favorite and least productive activity.

And in the end its one of the most important aspects of a space
transport design.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL