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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?



 
 
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  #101  
Old September 20th 18, 02:49 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 7:22:00 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

But again, anyone ignoring evidence is not doing science.


Those who ARE "ignoring science" have credentials that say they are
scientists.


They may have been at some point, but everyone is fallible. And when
you ignore evidence, you are not doing science, period.


The problem is that "evidence" doesn't have the same strength to
different scientists. There is a subjective component.

Straw man claim. Maybe you should go back in the thread a bit and
read/reread what I ACTUALLY wrote rather than just make disparaging
remarks.


Not worth the trouble, sorry...


Then don't make unsupported assertions.

And what if it is false? Beliefs can be wrong.


As I have discussed previously, the statistics are with me .. to
many 9's.


A statistics of only one single positive case can never be that
reliable, sorry...


You're speaking from ignorance of the argument since you don't want
to start at the beginning of the discussion. I'm willing to re-chew
my cabbage but not in a hostile environment.

However, polytheism typically envisions various gods at odds
with one another. Christianity, OTOH, has them in full agreement,
working in perfect harmony.

Satan is also a part of the Christian pantheon. Is Satan and God
in perfekt harmoni with one another?


It is important for our development that there be opposition. Of
course, not everyone will be admitted through the "Pearly Gates."
This is a basic teaching of Christianity.


So why are you then making false claims?


Which "false claims" would those be? That the "advanced civilization"
won't have different levels, lower ones not involved directly in
governing? YOU are making false assumptions :-)

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star
in glory.

"So also is the resurrection of the dead." -- 1 Corinthians 15:41-42
  #102  
Old September 20th 18, 03:53 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Paul Schlyter[_3_]
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Posts: 1,344
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:49:59 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:
On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 7:22:00 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter

wrote:

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:10:41 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

But again, anyone ignoring evidence is not doing science.

Those who ARE "ignoring science" have credentials that say they

are
scientists.


They may have been at some point, but everyone is fallible. And

when
you ignore evidence, you are not doing science, period.


The problem is that "evidence" doesn't have the same strength to
different scientists. There is a subjective component.


True, but if one scientist fail in his subjective opinion here,
another scientist can later correct that. The arbitrer is the success
or failure in predicting unobserved phenomena, or to improve the
predictions about already known phenomena.

Straw man claim. Maybe you should go back in the thread a bit

and
read/reread what I ACTUALLY wrote rather than just make

disparaging
remarks.


Not worth the trouble, sorry...


Then don't make unsupported assertions.


Yawn...


And what if it is false? Beliefs can be wrong.


As I have discussed previously, the statistics are with me .. to
many 9's.


A statistics of only one single positive case can never be that
reliable, sorry...


You're speaking from ignorance of the argument since you don't want
to start at the beginning of the discussion. I'm willing to re-chew
my cabbage but not in a hostile environment.


So you say? Well, if so, point me to one single planet besides the
Earth known to have intelligent life. I'm waiting...


However, polytheism typically envisions various gods at odds
with one another. Christianity, OTOH, has them in full

agreement,
working in perfect harmony.

Satan is also a part of the Christian pantheon. Is Satan and

God
in perfekt harmoni with one another?


It is important for our development that there be opposition.

Of
course, not everyone will be admitted through the "Pearly

Gates."
This is a basic teaching of Christianity.


So why are you then making false claims?


Which "false claims" would those be? That the "advanced

civilization"
won't have different levels, lower ones not involved directly in
governing? YOU are making false assumptions :-).


Your false claim was that all Christian deities live in harmony,
without making any exceptopn for Satan.


"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star
in glory.


In case you didn't know, the "glor of the Moon" is really the gliry
of the Sun. The Moon does not shrine with its own light.

And obviously, you live in a medieval worldview, or else you would
never say such things.
  #103  
Old September 20th 18, 04:52 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Posts: 331
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Paul Schlyter wrote in
:

On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:49:53 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Kujisalimisha wrote:
Heh. Good of you to agree that your atheism is every bit as
much a religious belief as any theism.


You are jumping your conclusions.


Based on your posts, it's a good bet.

FYI: I'm not an atheist, I'm
an agnostic.

I don't believe you. And what you've said is still an expression of
religious faith.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

  #104  
Old September 20th 18, 08:58 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 8:53:18 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:49:59 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 7:22:00 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter
wrote:

They may have been at some point, but everyone is fallible. And
when you ignore evidence, you are not doing science, period.


The problem is that "evidence" doesn't have the same strength to
different scientists. There is a subjective component.


True, but if one scientist fail in his subjective opinion here,
another scientist can later correct that. The arbitrer is the success
or failure in predicting unobserved phenomena, or to improve the
predictions about already known phenomena.


True. The arbiter is experimental evidence, but evidence that is
open to subjective interpretation isn't quelled until MORE evidence
is generated with less (or no) wiggle room.

And what if it is false? Beliefs can be wrong.

As I have discussed previously, the statistics are with me .. to
many 9's.

A statistics of only one single positive case can never be that
reliable, sorry...


You're speaking from ignorance of the argument since you don't want
to start at the beginning of the discussion. I'm willing to re-chew
my cabbage but not in a hostile environment.


So you say? Well, if so, point me to one single planet besides the
Earth known to have intelligent life. I'm waiting...


Point to one single piece of evidence that refutes intelligence in
our galaxy.

However, polytheism typically envisions various gods at odds
with one another. Christianity, OTOH, has them in full
agreement, working in perfect harmony.

Satan is also a part of the Christian pantheon. Is Satan and
God in perfekt harmoni with one another?

It is important for our development that there be opposition.
Of course, not everyone will be admitted through the "Pearly
Gates." This is a basic teaching of Christianity.

So why are you then making false claims?


Which "false claims" would those be? That the "advanced
civilization" won't have different levels, lower ones not involved
directly in governing? YOU are making false assumptions :-).


Your false claim was that all Christian deities live in harmony,
without making any exceptopn for Satan.


Satan is NOT a deity. YOU are the one that made that claim.

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star
in glory.


In case you didn't know, the "glor of the Moon" is really the gliry
of the Sun. The Moon does not shrine with its own light.


It's a metaphor, I'm sure you've heard of them.

And obviously, you live in a medieval worldview, or else you would
never say such things.


Paul lived in a civilized Roman society, LONG before the medieval period,
which was a devolved condition brought on by a collapse of civilization.
  #105  
Old September 20th 18, 11:03 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

“What have you that you have not received?”

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/anonymous/theologia.v.V.html

Not just this unknown author but also St Francis loved this saying of St Paul. All positive and negative experiences within an individual life make up the love by which we love creation as a participant rather than a commentator.

In this Galileo, albeit not reaching the inspirational heights of some Christians, said he couldn't teach a person anything but only help them find it in themselves. You all have these remarkable 21st century images in front of you all and telling different stories but behave as if they don't matter.
  #106  
Old September 21st 18, 08:44 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Martin Brown[_3_]
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Posts: 189
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On 19/09/2018 16:53, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Martin Brown wrote in
news
On 19/09/2018 14:22, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:57:53 +0200, Paul Schlyter wrote:

I believe the galaxy and the universe has a large population,
likely in a uniform civilization, except for the
johnny-come-latelies like ourselves. If that's true, then we
won't be allowed to interfere
with
other developing cultures.

And what if it is false? Beliefs can be wrong.


Until we either meet one of them or exchange signals or find
independently evolved light on another planet it is guesswork.

Admittedly some guesses are better than others. Big bang
cosmology coupled with the laws of physics followed by Darwinian
evolution having considerably higher credence than some
omnipotent deity deciding on a whim to create the universe last
Tuesday* and fake all the history of his new creation like a
dodgy antique dealer to make it look older.

* Some sources think it was a Monday 6000 years ago.


You imply that theology offers a scientific hypothesis that can be
judged on scientific criteria.


I imply that religions are mostly "Just so" stories invented by desert
dwelling nomads telling each other stories around the camp fire. They
have no significance beyond being good memorable foundation myths.

Religions are used by those in power to keep the poor under control and
promise them jam tomorrow but never jam today. Yours is the God of the
gaps invoked to explain anything that as yet science cannot explain.

The minimalist religious cult is:

Proposition A:
Ours is the one true religion! All non-believers will burn eternally in
hellfire.

Proposition B: It is the duty of all true believers to minimise suffering.

It is a small step from there to approving any finite amount of
torturing and burning of "heretics" at the stake for supporting the
wrong brand of "one true religion". Catholics and Protestants have been
at it ever since Martin Luther nailed his letter to the church door.

The Spanish inquisition invented waterboarding and many other horrors
long before your CIA friends but they called it toca.

As is so often the case among atheists, you have no idea what science
is. You certainly can't identify its absence.


I am *NOT* an atheist. I am a hard line agnostic.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #107  
Old September 21st 18, 08:57 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Martin Brown[_3_]
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Posts: 189
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On 20/09/2018 20:58, Gary Harnagel wrote:
On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 8:53:18 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:49:59 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 7:22:00 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter
wrote:

They may have been at some point, but everyone is fallible. And
when you ignore evidence, you are not doing science, period.

The problem is that "evidence" doesn't have the same strength to
different scientists. There is a subjective component.


True, but if one scientist fail in his subjective opinion here,
another scientist can later correct that. The arbitrer is the success
or failure in predicting unobserved phenomena, or to improve the
predictions about already known phenomena.


True. The arbiter is experimental evidence, but evidence that is
open to subjective interpretation isn't quelled until MORE evidence
is generated with less (or no) wiggle room.


Science is always subject to revision when better evidence becomes
available. The speed of light as a function of time with error bars
makes salutary reading for anyone who believes that scientists are
infallible. A famous experimentalist applied one of the terms for
correcting for an imperfect vacuum in the wrong sense and everyone after
him did the same *until* a new even more precise microwave method came
along and got a systematically different answer well outside 3 sigma.

During the intervening period of decades the error bars were getting
narrower with each refinement but around a systematically wrong value.

However, polytheism typically envisions various gods at odds
with one another. Christianity, OTOH, has them in full
agreement, working in perfect harmony.

Satan is also a part of the Christian pantheon. Is Satan and
God in perfekt harmoni with one another?

It is important for our development that there be opposition.
Of course, not everyone will be admitted through the "Pearly
Gates." This is a basic teaching of Christianity.

So why are you then making false claims?

Which "false claims" would those be? That the "advanced
civilization" won't have different levels, lower ones not involved
directly in governing? YOU are making false assumptions :-).


Your false claim was that all Christian deities live in harmony,
without making any exceptopn for Satan.


Satan is NOT a deity. YOU are the one that made that claim.


Hmm! What would you call him then "a disgruntled former employee of God"
aka a "fallen angel". Can't be much good as an omnipotent deity if he
can't keep his own house in order can he? At least the polytheists were
honest about having their Gods in conflict about how to run the Earth.

Romans just quietly absorbed any new Gods they ran into their pantheon.
That was until they ran into the awkward problem of monotheists.

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star
in glory.


In case you didn't know, the "glor of the Moon" is really the gliry
of the Sun. The Moon does not shrine with its own light.


It's a metaphor, I'm sure you've heard of them.


And because of it heaven will very certainly be hotter than hell ;-)
Blackbody Thermodynamics 101.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #108  
Old September 21st 18, 11:15 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

The great English poet William Blake could see the roots of the problem long before anyone else id or could. Most here commenting on what they believe is science vs religion is really a conviction using the education system as a conduit -

"I turn my eyes to the Schools & Universities of Europe
And there behold the Loom of Locke whose Woof rages dire
Washd by the Water-wheels of Newton. black the cloth
In heavy wreathes folds over every Nation; cruel Works
Of many Wheels I view, wheel without wheel, with cogs tyrannic
Moving by compulsion each other: not as those in Eden: which
Wheel within Wheel in freedom revolve in harmony & peace."
William Blake,Jerusalem


The clockwork solar system of Newton or rather, the Equatorial Coordinate System on which he hung his experimental agenda follows the calendar system so closely that the followers who learned about Newton through the classrooms of schools and colleges have no idea how correct Blake was even without the technical details.

A year does not correspond to one orbital circuit of the Sun even though the predictive framework of RA/Dec treats it that way as there is no way to fit planetary dynamics into a framework with 3 years of 365 days/rotations in it and 1 year of 366 days/rotations in it.


This thumbsucking of competing external principalities of God vs Satan or heaven vs hell is really found within each person in their journey through life and known to those people who operate at a creative/ productive level as the strife between harmony and invention. Those who live in their heads have no experience of neither heaven nor hell hence they just try to make themselves feel better by casting the genuine experiences in ways that mock those who choose to understand heaven and hell at their own level.


  #109  
Old September 21st 18, 12:44 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 1:57:57 AM UTC-6, Martin Brown wrote:

On 20/09/2018 20:58, Gary Harnagel wrote:

Satan is NOT a deity. YOU are the one that made that claim.


Hmm! What would you call him then "a disgruntled former employee of God"
aka a "fallen angel".


That about sums it up :-)

Can't be much good as an omnipotent deity if he can't keep his own house
in order can he?


As I said, Satan is necessary for our development.

At least the polytheists were honest about having their Gods in conflict
about how to run the Earth.

Romans just quietly absorbed any new Gods they ran into their pantheon.
That was until they ran into the awkward problem of monotheists.


They thought they could solve that problem with lions.

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star
in glory.

In case you didn't know, the "glor of the Moon" is really the gliry
of the Sun. The Moon does not shrine with its own light.


It's a metaphor, I'm sure you've heard of them.


And because of it heaven will very certainly be hotter than hell ;-)
Blackbody Thermodynamics 101.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown


Metaphor for brightness, not temperature :-)

BTW, I'm glad you consider yourself an agnostic. That's an honest
position as compared to atheism.
  #110  
Old September 21st 18, 04:47 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Posts: 331
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

Martin Brown wrote in
news
On 19/09/2018 16:53, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Martin Brown wrote in
news
On 19/09/2018 14:22, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 14:57:53 +0200, Paul Schlyter wrote:

I believe the galaxy and the universe has a large
population, likely in a uniform civilization, except for
the johnny-come-latelies like ourselves. If that's true,
then we won't be allowed to interfere
with
other developing cultures.

And what if it is false? Beliefs can be wrong.

Until we either meet one of them or exchange signals or find
independently evolved light on another planet it is guesswork.

Admittedly some guesses are better than others. Big bang
cosmology coupled with the laws of physics followed by
Darwinian evolution having considerably higher credence than
some omnipotent deity deciding on a whim to create the
universe last Tuesday* and fake all the history of his new
creation like a dodgy antique dealer to make it look older.

* Some sources think it was a Monday 6000 years ago.


You imply that theology offers a scientific hypothesis that can
be judged on scientific criteria.


I imply that religions are mostly "Just so" stories invented by
desert dwelling nomads telling each other stories around the
camp fire. They have no significance beyond being good memorable
foundation myths.


And that is your religious faith, and like all religious faith, is
your bigotry.

I am *NOT* an atheist. I am a hard line agnostic.

I don't believe you. Though it is novel to redefine "agnostic" to
cover atheism. Usually, it's the other way around.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

 




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