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NASA and shutdowns



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 20th 18, 02:27 AM posted to sci.space.policy
me[_5_]
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Posts: 70
Default NASA and shutdowns

U.S. Government Shutdown Won’t Impact ISS Operations
Jan 18, 2018 Mark Carreau | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
http://aviationweek.com/awinspace/us...iss-operations

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:43:42 -0500, JF Mezei
wrote:

Out of curiosity, how much of NASA is affected in the case of a
government shutdown?

Lets assume government shuts friday night. Lets assume NASA is to launch
some space proble on Sunday, a once in a lifetime oppportunity due to
alignment of planets/stars.

Would NASA be a "business as usual" for some time like Amtrak and Post
Office because they are already funded and don't need day-to-day funding
? Or would they have to justify that X staff are essential for this
launch, and all others would be furloughed?

Similarly, I assume mission control for ISS would be "essential". What
about experiment focused "mission" controls? Would they too be
considered essential and funded or would all experiments be put on hold
on ISS?


  #2  
Old January 20th 18, 02:25 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default NASA and shutdowns

On 1/20/2018 12:53 AM, JF Mezei wrote:
On 2018-01-19 20:27, me wrote:
U.S. Government Shutdown Won’t Impact ISS Operations
Jan 18, 2018 Mark Carreau | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
http://aviationweek.com/awinspace/us...iss-operations


Won't let me read it. Is it deemed to be an "essential" service that
continues despite shutdown, or an already funded service that can
continue until apporproaations run out?

Do ISS operation continue normally, or are they curtailed to some
extent? (experiements are ofren managed by Marshall with lots of staff
on ground).


If I were to ale Fred McCall to the letter, shoudln'r they be cutting
power, gas, heating to all federal buildings sinc there is no funding
to pay for it?



JF Mezi,

A quick search of DuckDuckGo (enough of Google already) using this
phrase: "iss and government shutdown" let to this website:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/19/1...s-falcon-heavy


Which in turn led to this PDF:

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/f...015-update.pdf


Commentary: (no charge :-)

I'm not trying to be overly critical here, or antagonistic. But searches
likes these are rudimentary these days and the information you seek is
ready available from on-line search engines. You seem to be stuck in the
1980's in the days before the Web when queries like these were necessary
to newsgroups such as this in order just to FIND the information. Often
times that required a follow up via either ftp downloading of a text
document or an email or telephone call to some cloistered government or
academic librarian and even US Mail! Thankfully, that is no longer the case.

I think it would be of more interest to me and perhaps other readers of
the newsgroup that you first seek out, using search engines, the basic
info you seek and then if you have specific questions using the above
source material (which IMO you should include as reference links) then
maybe you would get a better result based on the responses you'd get
from people here who have experience in such matters.

It would lead to better discussions and be of interest to the "experts"
more often than not. Also I suggest you subscribe to the mailing list
Arocket and lurk there for awhile to get a feel for the back and forth I
am describing.

http://www.arocketry.net/forum.html


Dave


  #3  
Old January 20th 18, 04:38 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default NASA and shutdowns

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2018-01-19 20:27, me wrote:
U.S. Government Shutdown Won’t Impact ISS Operations
Jan 18, 2018 Mark Carreau | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
http://aviationweek.com/awinspace/us...iss-operations


Won't let me read it. Is it deemed to be an "essential" service that
continues despite shutdown, or an already funded service that can
continue until apporproaations run out?


Nothing counts as "already funded". The government's authority to
disburse money expires.


Do ISS operation continue normally, or are they curtailed to some
extent? (experiements are ofren managed by Marshall with lots of staff
on ground).


Continue normally. Just what would 'curtailing' them save?


If I were to ale Fred McCall to the letter, shoudln'r they be cutting
power, gas, heating to all federal buildings sinc there is no funding
to pay for it?


They charge it. Vendors (rightly) assume that this will eventually
get sorted out and they'll get paid.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #4  
Old January 20th 18, 08:39 PM posted to sci.space.policy
me[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default NASA and shutdowns

On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 08:25:42 -0500, David Spain
wrote:


JF Mezi,

A quick search of DuckDuckGo (enough of Google already) using this
phrase: "iss and government shutdown" let to this website:


Hell just look to the links found for you at spacetoday.net :
http://spacetoday.net/

  #5  
Old January 22nd 18, 05:01 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default NASA and shutdowns

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2018-01-20 08:25, David Spain wrote:

A quick search of DuckDuckGo (enough of Google already) using this
phrase: "iss and government shutdown" let to this website:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/19/1...s-falcon-heavy



Gives the standard text. Does not address the fact that the White House
refused to provide details on exactly ahwt will and won't shutdown as
per Friday afternoon's press briefiengs, except reveal that the shutdown
would have far less impact than in the past because they found different
ways to interpret the rules.


The test firing of Falcon Heavy has been cancelled because of the
furlough of government safety personnel to support commercial test
flights.


The budget guy also refused to state
whether once settled, there would be retroactive pay. (despite this
being the expected behaviour from previous shutdowns).


That's because whether that happens or not is up to CONGRESS. If the
bill they eventually pass calls for retroactive pay, then people get
retroactive pay. If it doesn't then they don't. Nobody knows the
answer to that until a deal passes.


So the "standard" answers may not be applicable. Yes, of course, ISS
"essential" ops continue. But my question pertained more on how much
leaway NASA has to consider something "essential".


Yes, yes, and we could all die of magic unicorn farts on Tuesday.
Pretty unlikely, though.


The article provides some colour in terms of the spacewalk going ahead.
Does not mention ground based staff assigned to experiments. Oh, and
note the byline of that article "THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF UNKNOWNS"


Look, if you want minute details, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.


I'm not trying to be overly critical here, or antagonistic. But searches
likes these are rudimentary these days and the information you seek is


So, even when the articles you point has "THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF
UNKNOWNS", you feel it is inappropriate to ask questions on exactly how
this shutdown will happen ?


So, even when there are unknowns you think asking questions is useful?
There's a reason they're called 'unknowns' and the fact that there are
some doesn't mean everything is.


I am more curious to see what "running out of funds" really means in
terms of the law (and how much leaway each department has).


It's real simple. If funds are part of the annual budget, they stop.


I can understand a "no more contracts can be signed". But am not clear
what happens to existing contracts and international commitments.


They don't get paid until after a deal passes to fund things.


I can understand how a government worker at IRS who gets paycheck from
"US Government" is no longer funded, but not so clear about independent
organsiations such as NASA that get yearly budget, have their own
payroll, bank accounts etc. I would have expected that as long as they
remain within their already allocated budget envelope, they could
continue to operate normally.


NASA isn't 'independent', as you note yourself. It's a government
organization funded by annual budgets. No annual budget authority and
payments stop. They don't have an "already allocated budget
envelope". The failure to pass any sort of budget deal means nothing
is "already allocated".


And also curious on how NASA is different from say the US Post Office
and Amtrak , both of whom continue to operate normally under a shutdown.
(and whether a commercial operation such as launching Falcon Heavy would
be allowed since it generates revenues for NASA).


The US Post Office and AMTRAC are actually independent organizations
that aren't funded out of the annual budget. NASA is funded out of
the annual budget process and is NOT an 'independent organization'.
There's your difference.


And if the shutdown was real, woudln't utilities cut power/gas to
government buildings if, by law, they couldn't be paid for services
provided after the shutdown?


You've never heard of credit cards?


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #6  
Old January 22nd 18, 05:04 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default NASA and shutdowns

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2018-01-20 10:38, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Nothing counts as "already funded". The government's authority to
disburse money expires.


Continue normally. Just what would 'curtailing' them save?


based on your first statement, NASA can't pay its electric bills
anymore, can't pay ANY staff. And strictly speaking, "essential" would
be comms and life support on ISS, nothing else. Yet, an article states
that NASA will go ahead with spacewalks, and pay for support on the
ground, as well as pay folks like MDA that provide Canadarm support.


Cite for your "continue to pay" claims? You seem confused. Employees
identified as 'essential' DO NOT GET PAID DURING THE SHUTDOWN.


Seems to me that disbursements continue. (or commitments to pay once the
political circus moves onto another issue)


It's the latter. Have this tattooed on your eyeballs. AGENCIES
FUNDED THROUGH THE ANNUAL BUDGET PROCESS ***CANNOT*** DISBURSE FUNDS
WITHOUT AN APPROVED BUDGET.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #7  
Old January 22nd 18, 05:07 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default NASA and shutdowns

JF Mezei wrote:

From White House press briefing just released:
https://youtu.be/O8RraAbyrCI

The EPA is to remain open, using "unobligated balance" carry over funds.

Later, mentioned unobligated funds and those already at the agency.

NAFTA negotiations (due to start on Monday) will go on, using transfer
of funds and financig flexibility,


In other words, they're digging change out of the couch cushions.


NASA not mentioned. But it appears that much flexibility exists to
continue to operate normally. It was mentioned that government workers
have been sent "go to work, go to work for 4 hours to "shutdown"
operation, or don't show up" memos. (but not mentioned if separate
agencies got this).


What they don't mention is that THOSE GOVERNMENT WORKERS ***DO NOT GET
PAID*** until it's all over.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #8  
Old January 23rd 18, 05:36 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default NASA and shutdowns

JF Mezei wrote:


It appears I was unaware of a major aspect not discussed:


It appears that you are not aware (and are resistant to becoming
aware) of most things.


the USA is existing without a budget right now.


Uh, that is what is meant by 'government shutdown'. It's been
explained to you in excruciating detail.


In normal democracies a government falls (and new election called) if it
is unable to pass a budget on time, so most don't think of the
possibility of the USA existing without a budget.


Then apparently most aren't aware of the difference between a
parliamentary system and a republican system.


BTW, during the shutdown, NASA Tweeted that it would be unable to tweet
during the shutdown :-)


Probably someone doing that on their way out the door.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
 




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