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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
I have some time on my hands, so let's stir the soup[1].
Based on this premise from a previous post: That's why it will be up to private enterprise to open the space frontier if it ever is. They key to that, is making a buck, as in the saying "No bucks, no Buck Rodgers". If it can't economically sustain itself it won't matter much how or when we got there. We won't be able to stay. I suggest there are plenty of abandoned mining towns in the US West that proves that out. Now private enterprise doesn't a-priori *need* the government to assist other than if they have existing contracts that enable their space technology, as long as it's on a non-exclusionary basis, all is well. As it turns out I think you can make a compelling argument that without COTS now evolved into Commercial Crew, SpaceX would not exist. Maybe companies like Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin and even Electron Rocket would but they obviously aren't as far along as SpaceX has gotten with government help. Now given that, HERE is my argument for why SpaceX (or possibly Blue Origin) should mount a flags and footprint mission to the Mars ASAP. Every dollar wasted on SLS, albeit a drop in the bucket as far as the federal budget is concerned, were that money diverted to developing or subcontracting private enterprise to develop actual USEFUL technology for Mars habitation, such as growing food, nuclear power, habitat creation, sustainable life support, studies of human physiology in low gravity, etc. etc. All of that would be a HUGE BOON to human space exploration and expansion. As opposed to wasting billions on a rocket and launch system that has actually NOTHING to do with Mars and can barely get us back to the moon, at a tremendous expense and in a way known to be unsustainable, i.e. unable to self-sustain. A mission to Mars with a short stay duration and return would kill SLS. Once a fait accompli, there is no point to it. Then and perhaps only then will the money be reassigned into more productive means. Of course there is always a risk it would NOT be assigned to space. That is a risk. Companies like SpaceX obviously must plan to go it alone in any case. However, if it enables the former it is well worth the risk. A flags and footprints mission to the Moon by private enterprise *might* accomplish the same goal. That could certainly be mounted even sooner and at far less expense and I'd be willing to try it followed by a wait and see to see if that would be enough to kill off SLS. I fear not. The REAL billion dollar question is how to re-organize the government space program to outlast the administrations that administer it. Maybe the only way to do that is via an international consortium. I can't see that being very successful either unless it was non-governmental. On the other hand, if it's an NGO I'm convinced there won't be enough money involved to make a difference. Dave [1] or substitute your preferred substance... |
#2
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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
On Mar/6/2020 at 15:08, David Spain wrote :
I have some time on my hands, so let's stir the soup[1]. Based on this premise from a previous post: That's why it will be up to private enterprise to open the space frontier if it ever is. They key to that, is making a buck, as in the saying "No bucks, no Buck Rodgers". If it can't economically sustain itself it won't matter much how or when we got there. We won't be able to stay. I suggest there are plenty of abandoned mining towns in the US West that proves that out. Now private enterprise doesn't a-priori *need* the government to assist other than if they have existing contracts that enable their space technology, as long as it's on a non-exclusionary basis, all is well. As it turns out I think you can make a compelling argument that without COTS now evolved into Commercial Crew, SpaceX would not exist. Maybe companies like Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin and even Electron Rocket would but they obviously aren't as far along as SpaceX has gotten with government help. Now given that, HERE is my argument for why SpaceX (or possibly Blue Origin) should mount a flags and footprint mission to the Mars ASAP. Every dollar wasted on SLS, albeit a drop in the bucket as far as the federal budget is concerned, were that money diverted to developing or subcontracting private enterprise to develop actual USEFUL technology for Mars habitation, such as growing food, nuclear power, habitat creation, sustainable life support, studies of human physiology in low gravity, etc. etc. All of that would be a HUGE BOON to human space exploration and expansion. As opposed to wasting billions on a rocket and launch system that has actually NOTHING to do with Mars and can barely get us back to the moon, at a tremendous expense and in a way known to be unsustainable, i.e. unable to self-sustain. A mission to Mars with a short stay duration and return would kill SLS. Once a fait accompli, there is no point to it. Then and perhaps only then will the money be reassigned into more productive means. Of course there is always a risk it would NOT be assigned to space. That is a risk. Companies like SpaceX obviously must plan to go it alone in any case. However, if it enables the former it is well worth the risk. A flags and footprints mission to the Moon by private enterprise *might* accomplish the same goal. That could certainly be mounted even sooner and at far less expense and I'd be willing to try it followed by a wait and see to see if that would be enough to kill off SLS. I fear not. The REAL billion dollar question is how to re-organize the government space program to outlast the administrations that administer it. Maybe the only way to do that is via an international consortium. I can't see that being very successful either unless it was non-governmental. On the other hand, if it's an NGO I'm convinced there won't be enough money involved to make a difference. A Flags and footprints mission by SpaceX (Or Blue Origin or if someone else wants to step to the plate it's fine with me.) would also make SpaceXs plans to colonise Mars look much more real. That would probably help convince others like for instance https://cropbox.co that they could make a buck by adapting their technology for a Mars mission. I think that SpaceX will likely soon have rocket technology sufficient to colonise Mars. But there is much more to colonisation than to build the transport vehicle. Alain Fournier |
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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
On 2020-03-06 3:08 PM, David Spain wrote:
... Now private enterprise doesn't a-priori *need* the government to assist other than if they have existing contracts that enable their space technology, as long as it's on a non-exclusionary basis, all is well. As it turns out I think you can make a compelling argument that without COTS now evolved into Commercial Crew, SpaceX would not exist. Maybe companies like Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin and even Electron Rocket would but they obviously aren't as far along as SpaceX has gotten with government help. And that's a key point I need to re-emphasize. Given where SpaceX is relative to other private space companies, just imagine where we would be at should the money being spent on SLS become available not just to old space companies, but the handful of so-called new space companies. What if the government STOP letting contracts on cost-plus basis? How would that effect the space economy? If a flags and footprint mission were to be launched to either Moon or Mars, should the target landing location be selected such that with some simple exploration resources might be discovered that would enable a long term colony be established that might eventually be self-sustaining? So are we talking somewhat more risky landing spots? Like areas where lunar caves and or water exist? Similar for Mars? Dave |
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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
On 2020-03-07 3:45 PM, Alain Fournier wrote:
A Flags and footprints mission by SpaceX (Or Blue Origin or if someone else wants to step to the plate it's fine with me.) would also make SpaceXs plans to colonise Mars look much more real. That would probably help convince others like for instance https://cropbox.co that they could make a buck by adapting their technology for a Mars mission. I think that SpaceX will likely soon have rocket technology sufficient to colonise Mars. But there is much more to colonisation than to build the transport vehicle. Agreed. And the US government could be assisting these efforts instead of building a useless rocket. Imagine a world where the government is providing funding to explore having companies such as CropBox build food production technology for long term space missions. It's not the way we do it with today's NASA, esp. the way Congress treats it. The way NASA is assigned priorities must change or it will lose all relevance when it comes to human space flight, exploration and expansion. To some degree this will be natural and inevitable. NIST for example doesn't spend almost all of its budget and time on research and development of laboratory steam engines and steam powered locomotives these days. I'd just like to try to keep NASA relevant in the 21st century. Dave |
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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
In article , says...
On 2020-03-07 3:45 PM, Alain Fournier wrote: A Flags and footprints mission by SpaceX (Or Blue Origin or if someone else wants to step to the plate it's fine with me.) would also make SpaceXs plans to colonise Mars look much more real. That would probably help convince others like for instance https://cropbox.co that they could make a buck by adapting their technology for a Mars mission. I think that SpaceX will likely soon have rocket technology sufficient to colonise Mars. But there is much more to colonisation than to build the transport vehicle. Agreed. And the US government could be assisting these efforts instead of building a useless rocket. Imagine a world where the government is providing funding to explore having companies such as CropBox build food production technology for long term space missions. It's not the way we do it with today's NASA, esp. the way Congress treats it. The way NASA is assigned priorities must change or it will lose all relevance when it comes to human space flight, exploration and expansion. To some degree this will be natural and inevitable. NIST for example doesn't spend almost all of its budget and time on research and development of laboratory steam engines and steam powered locomotives these days. I'd just like to try to keep NASA relevant in the 21st century. I agree completely. And I think you're right that Congress won't cut of the pork funding to SLS until SpaceX and/or Blue Origin demonstrates that they have a superior launch vehicle that can actually send humans someplace useful. Until then, SLS supporters will just keep telling the same lie that SLS is the "only" vehicle that can launch humans beyond LEO. Jeff -- All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone. These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends, employer, or any organization that I am a member of. |
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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
On Mar/8/2020 at 11:01, David Spain wrote :
On 2020-03-07 3:45 PM, Alain Fournier wrote: A Flags and footprints mission by SpaceX (Or Blue Origin or if someone else wants to step to the plate it's fine with me.) would also make SpaceXs plans to colonise Mars look much more real. That would probably help convince others like for instance https://cropbox.co that they could make a buck by adapting their technology for a Mars mission. I think that SpaceX will likely soon have rocket technology sufficient to colonise Mars. But there is much more to colonisation than to build the transport vehicle. Agreed. And the US government could be assisting these efforts instead of building a useless rocket. Imagine a world where the government is providing funding to explore having companies such as CropBox build food production technology for long term space missions. It's not the way we do it with today's NASA, esp. the way Congress treats it. The way NASA is assigned priorities must change or it will lose all relevance when it comes to human space flight, exploration and expansion. To some degree this will be natural and inevitable. NIST for example doesn't spend almost all of its budget and time on research and development of laboratory steam engines and steam powered locomotives these days. I'd just like to try to keep NASA relevant in the 21st century. They aren't spending all their budget on steam powered locomotives? Well that explains why we no longer see those locomotives tooting by :-) I think that we both see things the same way here. But I'd like to emphasise that CropBox I mentioned above is only an example that came up to me without really thinking about it. I'm not sure if they are the best for the task of growing food on Mars. There are others that build similar containerised food growing greenhouses which might or might not be better than CropBox. But more importantly, there are numerous other things on which work should be going on *now*. Not wait years until SpaceX or whoever lands someone on Mars to start working on those things. A few things that come to mind for which we need to think about how to do it in a martian context: mining, pharmaceuticals (at first you can't have every kind of medication available, you probably should be ready to make locally some), air processing, micrometeorite damage repair, radiation protection, energy generation ... You can start a colony even if not everything is well adapted for Mars. But if too many things aren't ready, you will get into trouble more often. And if you get into trouble too often the colony will fail. If one person dies because you don't have the medication to treat his rare condition the colony can go on, but if every other day someone dies because the spacesuits aren't well adapted, and the mining technology isn't well adapted and ... You're in trouble. Alain Fournier |
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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
On Mar/8/2020 at 12:10, Alain Fournier wrote :
On Mar/8/2020 at 11:01, David Spain wrote : On 2020-03-07 3:45 PM, Alain Fournier wrote: A Flags and footprints mission by SpaceX (Or Blue Origin or if someone else wants to step to the plate it's fine with me.) would also make SpaceXs plans to colonise Mars look much more real. That would probably help convince others like for instance https://cropbox.co that they could make a buck by adapting their technology for a Mars mission. I think that SpaceX will likely soon have rocket technology sufficient to colonise Mars. But there is much more to colonisation than to build the transport vehicle. Agreed. And the US government could be assisting these efforts instead of building a useless rocket. Imagine a world where the government is providing funding to explore having companies such as CropBox build food production technology for long term space missions. It's not the way we do it with today's NASA, esp. the way Congress treats it. The way NASA is assigned priorities must change or it will lose all relevance when it comes to human space flight, exploration and expansion. To some degree this will be natural and inevitable. NIST for example doesn't spend almost all of its budget and time on research and development of laboratory steam engines and steam powered locomotives these days. I'd just like to try to keep NASA relevant in the 21st century. They aren't spending all their budget on steam powered locomotives? Well that explains why we no longer see those locomotives tooting by :-) I think that we both see things the same way here. But I'd like to emphasise that CropBox I mentioned above is only an example that came up to me without really thinking about it. I'm not sure if they are the best for the task of growing food on Mars. There are others that build similar containerised food growing greenhouses which might or might not be better than CropBox. But more importantly, there are numerous other things on which work should be going on *now*. Not wait years until SpaceX or whoever lands someone on Mars to start working on those things. A few things that come to mind for which we need to think about how to do it in a martian context: mining, pharmaceuticals (at first you can't have every kind of medication available, you probably should be ready to make locally some), air processing, micrometeorite damage repair, radiation protection, energy generation ... You can start a colony even if not everything is well adapted for Mars. But if too many things aren't ready, you will get into trouble more often. And if you get into trouble too often the colony will fail. If one person dies because you don't have the medication to treat his rare condition the colony can go on, but if every other day someone dies because the spacesuits aren't well adapted, and the mining technology isn't well adapted and ... You're in trouble. What a conincidence, I just stumled on this while reading some totally unrelated stuff: https://squarerootsgrow.com Square Roots is an urban indoor farming company that was started by a guy named Kimbal Musk. You might have heard about his brother Elon :-) Alain Fournier |
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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
On Mar/8/2020 at 17:49, Jeff Findley wrote :
In article , says... What a conincidence, I just stumled on this while reading some totally unrelated stuff: https://squarerootsgrow.com Square Roots is an urban indoor farming company that was started by a guy named Kimbal Musk. You might have heard about his brother Elon :-) I thought everyone knew this? ;-) Oh! Maybe just about everyone knew except for a few ignorants ;-) Yeah, his brother has been promoting this tech for quite a few years now. Paired with renewable energy, this technique allows you to grow fresh produce using a minimal amount of land, water, and power. Perfect for an urban setting and likely easily adapted for use on Mars. Even though lots of artists renderings show transparent greenhouses on Mars, it's likely more efficient to just put the "greenhouse" in a regular, opaque, pressure vessel (could be rigid or an inflatable) and use LED lighting. The LED lighting is easier to control the intensity, wavelengths, and etc. than relying on outside light from a sun that's further away and might be obscured by dust storms. I don't think dust storms are much of a problem in this respect. Unless what you meant is dust depositing on the window panels. Plants on Earth can grow just fine even if some days are cloudy. Shielding against cosmic rays might be an important issue and an opaque vessel can help in that regard. Another point where using natural light might cause problems on Mars is thermal control but I'm not sure about that, because the atmosphere is so tenuous, it probably isn't all that hard to heat the greenhouse. But to certain members of our society, growning certain plants indoors using efficient LED grow lights isn't anything new. ;-) I remember seeing an add in a magazine many years ago, it was from some company selling kits to grow plants indoor. Of course they couldn't openly promote doing illegal things. But in the add they said that you could recover your $8000 investment in a few months if you used it grow "valuable plants". They didn't specify what kind of plants were so valuable. Alain Fournier |
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Why I believe in flags and footprints NOW.
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