A wet Mars but was it cold or warm?

The debate now is not that Mars has water; it has oceans of it frozen
under a thin layer of Martian dust, as the Phoenix Lander has shown.

Nor is it an issue that Mars has liquid water and once had LOTS of liquid
water.

The debate is, was Mars warm, or was it very cold.(1) Sadly, here is
where it gets political, for we are talking about CO2 and climate change.

I hate it when political hacks put on lab coats and pose as scientist.

The claim is, a slurry of chemicals lowered the freezing point of water,
much like salt lowers the freezing point of water. The obvious answer,
however, is that Mars was warmer, liquid water existed, and the water
vapor pressure put a lot more water vapor into the atmosphere and that
caused the warming. This would highlight that the large CO2 atmosphere of
Mars didn't cause the warming and that water vapor is the larger
greenhouse gas.

Mars today is thus like the "frozen earth" theory(2). Basically, this
theory is that the earth once had such a large ice age that the oceans
froze and water vapor was lost from the atmosphere. Without the water
vapor, earth got colder.


(1) http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...54J5E220090520
(2) http://www.livescience.com/environme...all_earth.html
--

On May 24, 1:11*pm, Marvin the Martian wrote:
The debate now is not that Mars has water; it has oceans of it frozen
under a thin layer of Martian dust, as the Phoenix Lander has shown.

Nor is it an issue that Mars has liquid water and once had LOTS of liquid
water.

The debate is, was Mars warm, or was it very cold.(1) Sadly, here is
where it gets political, for we are talking about CO2 and climate change.

I hate it when political hacks put on lab coats and pose as scientist.

The claim is, a slurry of chemicals lowered the freezing point of water,
much like salt lowers the freezing point of water. The obvious answer,
however, is that Mars was warmer, liquid water existed, and the water
vapor pressure put a lot more water vapor into the atmosphere and that
caused the warming. This would highlight that the large CO2 atmosphere of
Mars didn't cause the warming and that water vapor is the larger
greenhouse gas.

Mars today is thus like the "frozen earth" theory(2). Basically, this
theory is that the earth once had such a large ice age that the oceans
froze and water vapor was lost from the atmosphere. Without the water
vapor, earth got colder.

(1)http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...54J5E220090520
(2)http://www.livescience.com/environme...all_earth.html
--

Unless we had a 2nd sun (such as Sirius B), Mars was always a cold
planet from the surface on up. Especially as of today, there's not
much interior geothermal energy to work with.

~ BG

Marvin the Martian wrote:
:
:The debate now is not that Mars has water; it has oceans of it frozen
:under a thin layer of Martian dust, as the Phoenix Lander has shown.
:

Beyond poppycock and into outright lie. It's shown no such thing.

:
:Nor is it an issue that Mars has liquid water and once had LOTS of liquid
:water.
:
:The debate is, was Mars warm, or was it very cold.(1) Sadly, here is
:where it gets political, for we are talking about CO2 and climate change.
:
:I hate it when political hacks put on lab coats and pose as scientist.
:

I hate it when idiots read things, fail to understand them, and then
tie it to all sorts of silly ****e.

:
:The claim is, a slurry of chemicals lowered the freezing point of water,
:much like salt lowers the freezing point of water. The obvious answer,
:however, is that Mars was warmer, liquid water existed, and the water
:vapor pressure put a lot more water vapor into the atmosphere and that
:caused the warming. This would highlight that the large CO2 atmosphere of
:Mars didn't cause the warming and that water vapor is the larger
:greenhouse gas.
:

Ridiculous thinking.

:
:Mars today is thus like the "frozen earth" theory(2). Basically, this
:theory is that the earth once had such a large ice age that the oceans
:froze and water vapor was lost from the atmosphere. Without the water
:vapor, earth got colder.
:

But nobody really believes this actually happened.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
Marvin the Martian wrote:
:
:The debate now is not that Mars has water; it has oceans of it frozen
:under a thin layer of Martian dust, as the Phoenix Lander has shown.
:

Beyond poppycock and into outright lie. It's shown no such thing.



There's plenty of evidence of frozen water on Mars, not just from
Phoenix. Five million years ago according to this paper...



Lunar and Planetary Science XXXVI (2005)

EVIDENCE FROM HRSC MARS EXPRESS FOR A FROZEN SEA
CLOSE TO MARS EQUATOR

"We have found evidence consistent with a presently-existing frozen
body of water, with surface pack-ice, around +5º latitude and 150º
east longitude in southern Elysium. It measures about 800 km x 900 km
and averages up to 45 m deep: similar in size and depth to the North Sea.
It has probably been protected from complete sublimation by a surface
sublimation lag formed from suspended sediment exposed
by early loss of the surface ice. Its age from crater counts is 5 ±2 Ma."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/1741.pdf


The question should be, does Mars have ice-ages? Does it's
complicated orbit allow periods of warming where water can
briefly flow to the surface? All evidence says the answer is
probably yes to both questions.


Wobbles of Mars Produced 40 Ice Ages
By Jeanna Bryner
Staff Writer

"Various spacecraft have revealed evidence for ice ages on Mars.
Around 4 million to 5 million years ago, precipitation events sent piles
of snow and ice that accumulated around the ice caps. Nowadays, the
only visible ice on Mars is the pair of polar caps. But in recent years,
orbiting probes have found solid evidence for vast sheets of underground
ice near the red planet's equator, at what scientists call mid-latitudes.
How ice ended up so far from the poles has remained a mystery.
The answer could be in the wobble of Mars, concludes Norbert
Schörghofer of the University of Hawaii's Astrobiology Institute. "
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._mars_ice.html







:
:Nor is it an issue that Mars has liquid water and once had LOTS of liquid
:water.
:
:The debate is, was Mars warm, or was it very cold.(1) Sadly, here is
:where it gets political, for we are talking about CO2 and climate change.
:
:I hate it when political hacks put on lab coats and pose as scientist.
:

I hate it when idiots read things, fail to understand them, and then
tie it to all sorts of silly ****e.

:
:The claim is, a slurry of chemicals lowered the freezing point of water,
:much like salt lowers the freezing point of water. The obvious answer,
:however, is that Mars was warmer, liquid water existed, and the water
:vapor pressure put a lot more water vapor into the atmosphere and that
:caused the warming. This would highlight that the large CO2 atmosphere of
:Mars didn't cause the warming and that water vapor is the larger
:greenhouse gas.
:

Ridiculous thinking.

:
:Mars today is thus like the "frozen earth" theory(2). Basically, this
:theory is that the earth once had such a large ice age that the oceans
:froze and water vapor was lost from the atmosphere. Without the water
:vapor, earth got colder.
:

But nobody really believes this actually happened.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

"Marvin the Martian" wrote in message
news

The debate now is not that Mars has water; it has oceans of it frozen
under a thin layer of Martian dust, as the Phoenix Lander has shown.

Phoenix landed near one of the Martain poles and only sampled Martain soil
to a depth best measured in inches or centimeters. To use that single data
point to extrapolate that Mars "has oceans of it (water) frozen
under a thin layer of Martian dust" is completely illogical and idiotic.
It's like a six year old saying the sky is orange while pointing to a
sunset.

Nor is it an issue that Mars has liquid water and once had LOTS of liquid
water.

Possibly, but "LOTS" is a bit vague and most of that water is gone now.

The debate is, was Mars warm, or was it very cold.(1) Sadly, here is
where it gets political, for we are talking about CO2 and climate change.

You're the only one here getting "political" because no one else here is
silly enough to claim that the weather on Mars has anything to do with the
weather on Earth.

I hate it when political hacks put on lab coats and pose as scientist.

What evidence do you have that scientists who are studying the history of
the Martain climate are hacks motivated by environmental politics?

The claim is, a slurry of chemicals lowered the freezing point of water,
much like salt lowers the freezing point of water. The obvious answer,
however, is that Mars was warmer, liquid water existed, and the water
vapor pressure put a lot more water vapor into the atmosphere and that
caused the warming. This would highlight that the large CO2 atmosphere of
Mars didn't cause the warming and that water vapor is the larger
greenhouse gas.

Mars today is thus like the "frozen earth" theory(2).

No, it's not.

Basically, this
theory is that the earth once had such a large ice age that the oceans
froze and water vapor was lost from the atmosphere. Without the water
vapor, earth got colder.

No, that's not the theory. The theory goes that frozen water (snow and ice)
reflects more of the sun's energy than does liquid water. The theory has
nothing to do with losing water from the atmosphere.


(1) http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...54J5E220090520

The above is a Mars climate article which says nothing of Earth's climate.

(2) http://www.livescience.com/environme...all_earth.html

The above is an Earth climate article which says nothing of Martian climate.

The two articles have absolutely nothing to do with each other. You're
"connecting the dots" between things that have no connection. Have you seen
the movie, "A Beautiful Mind"?

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon

On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:26:32 -0400, Jeff Findley wrote:

"Marvin the Martian" wrote in message
news

The debate now is not that Mars has water; it has oceans of it frozen
under a thin layer of Martian dust, as the Phoenix Lander has shown.

Phoenix landed near one of the Martain poles and only sampled Martain
soil to a depth best measured in inches or centimeters. To use that
single data point to extrapolate that Mars "has oceans of it (water)
frozen under a thin layer of Martian dust" is completely illogical and
idiotic. It's like a six year old saying the sky is orange while
pointing to a sunset.

Yes, it would be. But that isn't the case. The 2001 Mars Odyssey
spacecraft mapped Mars using a High Energy Neutron Detector (HEND) and
found copious amounts of hydrogen.

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/June02/MarsGRSice.html

Free hydrogen would eventually escape the Mars atmosphere. This hydrogen
would have to be molecular. The Phoenix lander went down to check what
form this hydrogen is in; it was found to be water.

Now, you can argue, I suppose, that it is water ice ONLY where the
Phoenix lander landed, and it is methane or some other hydrogen molecule
everywhere else, but that would be "idiotic".


Nor is it an issue that Mars has liquid water and once had LOTS of
liquid water.

Possibly, but "LOTS" is a bit vague and most of that water is gone now.

No. See the above URL.

The debate is, was Mars warm, or was it very cold.(1) Sadly, here is
where it gets political, for we are talking about CO2 and climate
change.

You're the only one here getting "political" because no one else here is
silly enough to claim that the weather on Mars has anything to do with
the weather on Earth.

The laws of physics govern climate change, and those laws of physics are
the same on Mars as they are on Earth.

I hate it when political hacks put on lab coats and pose as scientist.

What evidence do you have that scientists who are studying the history
of the Martain climate are hacks motivated by environmental politics?

That they make absurd claims of anti-freeze in martian water to keep it
flowing on a planet as cold as dry ice, rather than admit that water
vapor is a greenhouse gas and that once caused Mars to be a warmer
planet.

They anti-freeze theory is a bit over the top.

snip a lot of "ain't so" that doesn't address the issues.

--
Flamer & Trolls happily killfiled, as they should. No one should have to
tolerate their abuse. If a flamer should get luck and ask an intelligent
question and you want it answered, repeat it for them.

Marvin the Martian wrote:

:On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:26:32 -0400, Jeff Findley wrote:
:
: "Marvin the Martian" wrote in message
: news :
: The debate now is not that Mars has water; it has oceans of it frozen
: under a thin layer of Martian dust, as the Phoenix Lander has shown.
:
: Phoenix landed near one of the Martain poles and only sampled Martain
: soil to a depth best measured in inches or centimeters. To use that
: single data point to extrapolate that Mars "has oceans of it (water)
: frozen under a thin layer of Martian dust" is completely illogical and
: idiotic. It's like a six year old saying the sky is orange while
: pointing to a sunset.
:
:Yes, it would be. But that isn't the case. The 2001 Mars Odyssey
:spacecraft mapped Mars using a High Energy Neutron Detector (HEND) and
:found copious amounts of hydrogen.
:
:http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/June02/MarsGRSice.html
:
:Free hydrogen would eventually escape the Mars atmosphere. This hydrogen
:would have to be molecular. The Phoenix lander went down to check what
:form this hydrogen is in; it was found to be water.
:
:Now, you can argue, I suppose, that it is water ice ONLY where the
:Phoenix lander landed, and it is methane or some other hydrogen molecule
:everywhere else, but that would be "idiotic".
:

You do understand they're only looking at the South Pole, right?

:
: Nor is it an issue that Mars has liquid water and once had LOTS of
: liquid water.
:
: Possibly, but "LOTS" is a bit vague and most of that water is gone now.
:
:No. See the above URL.
:

I did. From -60 degrees and south. In other words, the South Pole.
And it's 'dirty ice' and 'hydrated minerals'. You're leaping to
conclusions that aren't supported by your own cite.

: The debate is, was Mars warm, or was it very cold.(1) Sadly, here is
: where it gets political, for we are talking about CO2 and climate
: change.
:
: You're the only one here getting "political" because no one else here is
: silly enough to claim that the weather on Mars has anything to do with
: the weather on Earth.
:
:The laws of physics govern climate change, and those laws of physics are
:the same on Mars as they are on Earth.
:

So there's no need to go to Mars to study them.

: I hate it when political hacks put on lab coats and pose as scientist.
:
: What evidence do you have that scientists who are studying the history
: of the Martain climate are hacks motivated by environmental politics?
:
:That they make absurd claims of anti-freeze in martian water to keep it
:flowing on a planet as cold as dry ice, rather than admit that water
:vapor is a greenhouse gas and that once caused Mars to be a warmer
lanet.
:

Because there's no evidence for any such thing and lots of evidence
for the dissolved salts.

:
:They anti-freeze theory is a bit over the top.
:

Yeah, I suspect much of reality is 'over the top' for you.

: snip a lot of "ain't so" that doesn't address the issues.

Typical loon; can't face facts when confronted with them.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
Marvin the Martian wrote:

:On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:26:32 -0400, Jeff Findley wrote:
:
: "Marvin the Martian" wrote in message
: news :
: The debate now is not that Mars has water; it has oceans of it frozen
: under a thin layer of Martian dust, as the Phoenix Lander has shown.
:
: Phoenix landed near one of the Martain poles and only sampled Martain
: soil to a depth best measured in inches or centimeters. To use that
: single data point to extrapolate that Mars "has oceans of it (water)
: frozen under a thin layer of Martian dust" is completely illogical and
: idiotic. It's like a six year old saying the sky is orange while
: pointing to a sunset.
:
:Yes, it would be. But that isn't the case. The 2001 Mars Odyssey
:spacecraft mapped Mars using a High Energy Neutron Detector (HEND) and
:found copious amounts of hydrogen.
:
:http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/June02/MarsGRSice.html
:
:Free hydrogen would eventually escape the Mars atmosphere. This hydrogen
:would have to be molecular. The Phoenix lander went down to check what
:form this hydrogen is in; it was found to be water.
:
:Now, you can argue, I suppose, that it is water ice ONLY where the
:Phoenix lander landed, and it is methane or some other hydrogen molecule
:everywhere else, but that would be "idiotic".
:

You do understand they're only looking at the South Pole, right?


The bulk of water ice is thought to be at the mid lattitudes. Last
estimate I heard was up to 60% of the top 3 meters of soil was
comprised of water ice covering large portions of the mid
lattitudes. By any measure that's a huge amount of water.

On Mon, 25 May 2009 18:39:55 -0400, Jonathan wrote:


The bulk of water ice is thought to be at the mid lattitudes. Last
estimate I heard was up to 60% of the top 3 meters of soil was comprised
of water ice covering large portions of the mid lattitudes. By any
measure that's a huge amount of water.

Yes.
http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/June02/MarsGRSice.html

They have two maps, one that shows water in the first 80 cm, and another
that shows water below 60 cm.


--
Flamer & Trolls happily killfiled, as they should. No one should have to
tolerate their abuse. If a flamer should get luck and ask an intelligent
question and you want it answered, repeat it for them.

Marvin the Martian wrote:

:On Mon, 25 May 2009 18:39:55 -0400, Jonathan wrote:
:
: The bulk of water ice is thought to be at the mid lattitudes. Last
: estimate I heard was up to 60% of the top 3 meters of soil was comprised
: of water ice covering large portions of the mid lattitudes. By any
: measure that's a huge amount of water.
:
:Yes.
:

Well, 'yes' for some definition of "mid-latitudes" that means "south
pole".

:
:http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/June02/MarsGRSice.html
:
:They have two maps, one that shows water in the first 80 cm, and another
:that shows water below 60 cm.
:

And you misread it again. That's not what the two maps are.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine