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Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 9th 08, 05:21 AM posted to sci.space.moderated,sci.space.policy
Craig Fink
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Posts: 1,858
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

A planetary probe should be able to fly in and sample Saturn's ring material
and analysis it and/or return a sample to Earth. The relative velocity
between the probe and ring material would be almost zero if the probe is
in-plane near circular.

Has anyone proposed or is working on a Saturn Ring Sample mission?
--
Craig Fink
Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @

  #2  
Old April 10th 08, 12:00 AM posted to sci.space.moderated
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,516
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

On Apr 9, 12:21UTF16-FFFDam, Craig Fink wrote:
A planetary probe should be able to fly in and sample Saturn's ring material
and analysis it and/or return a sample to Earth. The relative velocity
between the probe and ring material would be almost zero if the probe is
in-plane near circular.

Has anyone proposed or is working on a Saturn Ring Sample mission?
--
Craig Fink
Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @


nope all the money goes to shuttle and shuttle replacement, science
has little priority and even less money

  #3  
Old April 10th 08, 12:00 AM posted to sci.space.moderated
Matt
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Posts: 258
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

On Apr 8, 10:21 pm, Craig Fink wrote:
A planetary probe should be able to fly in and sample Saturn's ring material
and analysis it and/or return a sample to Earth. The relative velocity
between the probe and ring material would be almost zero if the probe is
in-plane near circular.

Has anyone proposed or is working on a Saturn Ring Sample mission?
--
Craig Fink
Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @


That's an interesting thought. It's hard to believe no one has ever
considered it, but I try to be well-read on space science, and I've
never heard of a proposal to do that. Possibly it's felt that fly-bys
have analyzed it sufficiently.
Matt Bille

  #4  
Old April 10th 08, 12:00 AM posted to sci.space.moderated
Herman Rubin
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Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

In article ,
Craig Fink wrote:
A planetary probe should be able to fly in and sample Saturn's ring material
and analysis it and/or return a sample to Earth. The relative velocity
between the probe and ring material would be almost zero if the probe is
in-plane near circular.


Has anyone proposed or is working on a Saturn Ring Sample mission?


Assuming you had a big enough and complex enough vehicle
you could get to the neighborhood of Saturn and get the
vehicle into the same orbit as ring particles, getting the
piece of the ring particle might not be too difficult.

But it would have to be analyzed there. Returning it
to Earth in usable shape might be difficult for many
reasons, one of them being that the current estimate
of what the ring particles are come up with some sort
of water-ammonia ice, and even returning an empty
probe requires more energy than will be available.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

  #5  
Old April 10th 08, 12:01 AM posted to sci.space.moderated
[email protected]
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Posts: 37
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

On Apr 9, 12:21 am, Craig Fink wrote:
A planetary probe should be able to fly in and sample Saturn's ring material
and analysis it and/or return a sample to Earth. The relative velocity
between the probe and ring material would be almost zero if the probe is
in-plane near circular.


Yes -- it's getting the probe into this circular orbit which is the
problem. Escape velocity at the outer edge of the rings (120,000 km
above Saturn's equator) is about 20 km/sec. Circular orbital velocity
is 14 km/sec. So a return probe needs 6 km/sec delta-v to escape
Saturn, at least the same amount to transfer from an interplanetary
trajectory to circular Saturn orbit in the first place (repeated Titan
flybys could help a little with either), then AT LEAST 5.5 km/sec
delta-v to get back to Earth. Flat-out impossible with chemical
rockets, and doable but very expensive with nuclear-powered ion
propulsion.

Has anyone proposed or is working on a Saturn Ring Sample mission?


To the best of my knowledge no -- at least not seriously.

  #6  
Old April 10th 08, 01:39 AM posted to sci.space.moderated
Alain Fournier[_2_]
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Posts: 373
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

Craig Fink wrote:
A planetary probe should be able to fly in and sample Saturn's ring material
and analysis it and/or return a sample to Earth. The relative velocity
between the probe and ring material would be almost zero if the probe is
in-plane near circular.

Has anyone proposed or is working on a Saturn Ring Sample mission?


If the probe is in-plane near circular at 180 Mm from Saturn centre
(the top of Saturn rings) it needs a delta v of about 6 km/s to get
out of the Saturn system. That is a rather large delta v. And then
you knead some more delta v to get to Earth.

You can get some help by using gravity assists from Saturnian moons and
you can use some fancy high ISP propulsion (ion drives or what not). But
still we aren't talking about an easy mission here.


Alain Fournier

  #7  
Old April 10th 08, 01:40 AM posted to sci.space.moderated
Alain Fournier[_2_]
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Posts: 373
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

wrote:

On Apr 9, 12:21 am, Craig Fink wrote:

A planetary probe should be able to fly in and sample Saturn's ring material
and analysis it and/or return a sample to Earth. The relative velocity
between the probe and ring material would be almost zero if the probe is
in-plane near circular.



Yes -- it's getting the probe into this circular orbit which is the
problem. Escape velocity at the outer edge of the rings (120,000 km
above Saturn's equator) is about 20 km/sec. Circular orbital velocity
is 14 km/sec. So a return probe needs 6 km/sec delta-v to escape
Saturn, at least the same amount to transfer from an interplanetary
trajectory to circular Saturn orbit in the first place (repeated Titan
flybys could help a little with either), then AT LEAST 5.5 km/sec
delta-v to get back to Earth. Flat-out impossible with chemical
rockets, and doable but very expensive with nuclear-powered ion
propulsion.


I wouldn't go so far as saying flat-out impossible with chemical
rockets. You can use multiple gravity assists with multiple
Saturnian moons. But it would be a very complex mission.

With chemical rockets and without using gravity assists it would be
a ridiculously monstrous mission. But with careful planing you can
lose and gain almost all the delta v needed to get in and out of
the Saturnian system with multiple gravity assists. Still it would
be a very complex mission. Using, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter,
Titan, Rhea, Tethys and Mimas, you can do the trip with little
more energy than that needed to reach Venus. Unless you are lucky
with the planetary alignment it would take a lot of time, but it
could be done.


Alain Fournier

  #8  
Old April 13th 08, 11:24 PM posted to sci.space.moderated
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

Herman Rubin wrote:

But it would have to be analyzed there. Returning it
to Earth in usable shape might be difficult for many
reasons, one of them being that the current estimate
of what the ring particles are come up with some sort
of water-ammonia ice, and even returning an empty
probe requires more energy than will be available.


Ideally, once the probe was in Saturn orbit near the rings, it would
start from the outer edge and slowly work inwards to the inner edge,
sampling and analyzing the ring material in multiple places as it moved,
so that a detailed model of ring composition could be built up.
Photography from inside the rings would really be something to see.

Pat

  #9  
Old April 13th 08, 11:24 PM posted to sci.space.moderated
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

Alain Fournier wrote:

You can get some help by using gravity assists from Saturnian moons and
you can use some fancy high ISP propulsion (ion drives or what not). But
still we aren't talking about an easy mission here.


Which brings up a interesting possibility; the gravity of the tiny moons
located near and in the rings is very low, and the probe would be
traveling in their orbital plane...so why not land the probe on one of
them and sample its surface?

Pat

  #10  
Old April 13th 08, 11:25 PM posted to sci.space.moderated
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,465
Default Saturn Ring Sample Return Mission?

Alain Fournier wrote:


With chemical rockets and without using gravity assists it would be
a ridiculously monstrous mission. But with careful planing you can
lose and gain almost all the delta v needed to get in and out of
the Saturnian system with multiple gravity assists. Still it would
be a very complex mission. Using, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter,
Titan, Rhea, Tethys and Mimas, you can do the trip with little
more energy than that needed to reach Venus. Unless you are lucky
with the planetary alignment it would take a lot of time, but it
could be done.


This still sounds like something ion engines would be helpful for once
you get near Saturn.
The key for a successful sample return would be a very small and
lightweight return capsule, but frankly I think it makes more sense to
examine the samples in-situ from a overall spacecraft mass point of view.
One thing the ion engines would allow you to do is maneuver to different
areas of the rings at different orbital heights over the planet in a
reasonable amount of time.

Pat

 




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