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Watching Mercury today



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 25th 19, 12:59 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
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Default Watching Mercury today

On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 6:28:45 PM UTC-5, palsing wrote:
On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 2:21:15 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:28:23 PM UTC-5, palsing wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:23:06 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

Just discovered the Soho Lasco imaging and it is fascinating...

... and has been fascinating for the last 30 years!

You are just a little late to the party...


Have you checked out this Website?

https://aerospace.org/node/6966


I have now. It is about the deorbiting of an Iridium satellite. What does this have to do with anything else being discussed here?


Both the aerospace and the SOHO Websites concern satellites.

Astronomers are often interested in satellites.

This is an astronomy newsgroup.

aerospace.org is a Website of which YOU were unaware, just as GK had been unaware of features on the SOHO site.

This is GK's thread, so if he wants to inform readers of the existence of interesting Websites, that should be his prerogative.

It is out of line for you to insult him for doing so.

You are the one who went off-topic.
  #12  
Old January 25th 19, 01:37 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Watching Mercury today

On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 11:40:11 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:03:07 PM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 4:28:23 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:23:06 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

Just discovered the Soho Lasco imaging and it is fascinating...

... and has been fascinating for the last 30 years!

You are just a little late to the party...


Even you now can say that previously astronomers believed that the direct/retrogrades of Venus and Mercury were gauged against the background stars, after all, this is the flawed animation you provided before -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYYwNvjr7Lg


Except... it is not flawed, it is exactly what you would see from the surface of the Earth if only the Sun was not so bright and often 'in the way'.


It happens that wider society is coming around to the actual common sense perspective where Venus and Mercury run back and forth in front and then behind the Sun where the Sun is central to that perspective and the Earth's orbital motion is accounted by the change in position of the background stars from left to right of the Sun.

https://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data...current_c3.gif

This is happening right now in the direction of the stationary Sun so having a satellite with the ability to both screen out the Sun's glare and celestial sphere rotation offers observers a picture of the inner solar system from the orbital motion of the planet.

You understand this is for those who can add to the resolution for the direct/retrogrades of the slower moving planets with a new understanding of the motion of the faster planets inclusive of our orbital motion.

If you want to believe Venus doesn't show a closed loop with the Sun at the centre then be my guest, this type of astronomy is not for everyone.


  #13  
Old January 25th 19, 09:08 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default Watching Mercury today

On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 3:59:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 6:28:45 PM UTC-5, palsing wrote:
On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 2:21:15 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:28:23 PM UTC-5, palsing wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:23:06 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

Just discovered the Soho Lasco imaging and it is fascinating...

... and has been fascinating for the last 30 years!

You are just a little late to the party...

Have you checked out this Website?

https://aerospace.org/node/6966


I have now. It is about the deorbiting of an Iridium satellite. What does this have to do with anything else being discussed here?


Both the aerospace and the SOHO Websites concern satellites.

Astronomers are often interested in satellites.

This is an astronomy newsgroup.

aerospace.org is a Website of which YOU were unaware, just as GK had been unaware of features on the SOHO site.

This is GK's thread, so if he wants to inform readers of the existence of interesting Websites, that should be his prerogative.


Sure, and I agree with Gerald that the SOHO website is interesting.

It is out of line for you to insult him for doing so.


I didn't insult Gerald, I just told him that he discovered this website 30 years after it was created.

You are the one who went off-topic.


Only in your dreams....


  #14  
Old January 25th 19, 09:14 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default Watching Mercury today

On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 4:37:02 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

If you want to believe Venus doesn't show a closed loop with the Sun at the centre then be my guest, this type of astronomy is not for everyone.


I never made that claim, Gerald, I only reminded you that apparent planetary motion with respect to the Sun is not the only perspective. In your case, it seems to be the case that apparent planetary motion with respect to the fixed stars is not for you... but I can assure you that it is still astronomy.

  #15  
Old January 25th 19, 09:25 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Watching Mercury today

On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 8:14:20 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 4:37:02 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

If you want to believe Venus doesn't show a closed loop with the Sun at the centre then be my guest, this type of astronomy is not for everyone.


I never made that claim, Gerald, I only reminded you that apparent planetary motion with respect to the Sun is not the only perspective. In your case, it seems to be the case that apparent planetary motion with respect to the fixed stars is not for you... but I can assure you that it is still astronomy.


The people I respect are Galileo and the original Sun centred astronomers who never knew this perspective as they assigned the back and forth motions of Venus and Mercury as illusions caused by the Earth's orbital motion -

"Now what is said here of Jupiter is to be understood of Saturn and Mars also. In Saturn these retrogressions are somewhat more frequent than in Jupiter, because its motion is slower than Jupiter's, so that the Earth overtakes it in a shorter time. In Mars they are rarer, its motion being faster than that of Jupiter, so that the Earth spends more time in catching up with it. Next, as to Venus and Mercury, whose circles are included within that of the Earth, stoppings and retrograde motions appear in them also, due not to any motion that really exists in them, but to the annual motion of the Earth. This is acutely demonstrated by Copernicus . . ." Galileo

These were great people who could rightly celebrate half a solution as the illusory loops of the slower moving planets are discerned against a fixed stellar background -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap181108.html

There is so much going on with the direct/retrogrades of the faster moving Venus and Mercury that only satellite footage could resolve their motions and ours around the Sun.






  #16  
Old January 26th 19, 01:35 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
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Posts: 9,472
Default Watching Mercury today

On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 3:08:57 PM UTC-5, palsing wrote:
On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 3:59:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 6:28:45 PM UTC-5, palsing wrote:
On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 2:21:15 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:28:23 PM UTC-5, palsing wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:23:06 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

Just discovered the Soho Lasco imaging and it is fascinating...

... and has been fascinating for the last 30 years!

You are just a little late to the party...

Have you checked out this Website?

https://aerospace.org/node/6966

I have now. It is about the deorbiting of an Iridium satellite. What does this have to do with anything else being discussed here?


Both the aerospace and the SOHO Websites concern satellites.

Astronomers are often interested in satellites.

This is an astronomy newsgroup.

aerospace.org is a Website of which YOU were unaware, just as GK had been unaware of features on the SOHO site.

This is GK's thread, so if he wants to inform readers of the existence of interesting Websites, that should be his prerogative.


Sure, and I agree with Gerald that the SOHO website is interesting.

It is out of line for you to insult him for doing so.


I didn't insult Gerald, I just told him that he discovered this website 30
years after it was created.


"On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 11:23:06 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

Just discovered the Soho Lasco imaging and it is fascinating..."


"... and has been fascinating for the last 30 years!

You are just a little late to the party..."

No, you very definitely insulted him or that was at least your intent.



You are the one who went off-topic.


Only in your dreams....


Insulting someone's posting of a useful link drags the thread off-topic. And there you go again with a rude attempt at an insult.



  #17  
Old January 26th 19, 04:20 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Watching Mercury today

On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 5:09:00 PM UTC-7, Mike Collins wrote:

So you’ve finally realised. You have given a link to a site which
demonstrates perfectly that from the point of view of the Sun there are no
retrogrades.


I don't think he _ever_ had an issue with that fact. Although, given the number
of real astronomical facts with which he does have issues, I understand that it
may be somewhat confusing to sort out one from another.

He recognizes the achievement of Copernicus in showing the planets don't orbit
the Earth, they orbit the Sun. He praises and applauds Copernicus, Galileo, and
Kepler.

And he has also affirmed that the retrograde motions of the outer planets are
illusory, rather than real; an artifact caused by the Earth's motion around the
Sun.

An issue that has recently come up is that he has stated that the retrograde
motions of Mercury and Venus *are not illusory*. Some people here have taken
issue with that statement. After all, if there are no retrograde motions from
the true viewpoint, the view from the Sun, how can any retrogrades we see be
anything but illusions?

But allowing for the fact that as he has an unusual perspective on the Solar
System and its motions, and so he doesn't use the same language as the rest of
us, it seems to me that what he is stating is a correct and true fact about the
Solar System, even if it isn't the novel original discovery on his part that he
thinks it is.

Look at the moons of Jupiter. They move backwards as well as forwards in their
orbit of Jupiter from our point of view. Is that an illusion?

No; the motion we're seeing is their real orbital motion around Jupiter.
Sometimes it's direct, and sometimes it's retrograde, because we're seeing the
system *from the outside*.

Similarly, when we see Venus and Mercury in retrograde motion, that retrograde
motion *is their real orbital motion around the Sun*. It isn't the Earth's
motion around the Sun that makes them look like they're in retrograde motion -
it's the fact that the Earth is farther away from the Sun, so when they pass in
front of the Sun, the direction of their orbital motion is reversed *because
we're seeing it from outside the orbit*.

The Earth's motion around the Sun makes an illusory contribution to their
motions of a progression through the Zodiac in the direct direction once a year,
moved along by the apparent motion of the Sun through the Zodiac.

If one looks at a drawing of the apparent orbits of the planets from Earth's
point of view, one sees a series of loops going around the Earth. The loops are
made by a big circle, giving the overall motion, and a little circle, adding the
loopy curlicues.

For an outer planet, the big circle has the period of the planet's orbit around
the Sun, and the little circle the period of the Earth's orbit around the Sun.

For an inner planet, the big circle has the period of one year - and the little
circle has the period of the planet's orbit around the Sun.

So the loops in the apparent orbit are "illusions" caused by the Earth's motion,
and not part of the planet's real solar orbit - for an outer planet.

For an inner planet, the loops are the planet's real solar orbit - as we see it
from outside - and the apparent overall orbit is the contribution of the Sun's
illusory apparent motion around the Earth.

He noticed this, and is calling attention to the fact that for the inner
planets, the retrogrades aren't illusions imposed by the Earth's motion, but
instead are to be expected from observing the reality of those planets' always-
direct motion around the Sun from the *outside* _position_ of the Earth.

That he has managed, for once, to actually get something _right_, however
clumsily he may express this insight...

causes me to be dismayed when those who, knowing astronomy properly, without the
confusion from which he suffers, mistakenly tell him he is wrong once agaoin.
  #18  
Old January 26th 19, 08:42 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Watching Mercury today

On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 12:09:00 AM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
Gerald Kelleher wrote:

https://www.theplanetstoday.com/

So you’ve finally realised. You have given a link to a site which
demonstrates perfectly that from the point of view of the Sun there are no
retrogrades.


You surprise me, you affirmed that the stars would proceed from an evening appearance to morning appearance or from left to right of the Sun as a consequence of the Earth's orbital motion yet went into full reverse after this..

I am fully aware who's work I am adding to as the first Sun centred astronomers hadn't the tools to screen out stellar circumpolar motion nor the Sun's glare but here you have satellite imaging which does exactly that.

The timelapse from the year 2000 is spectacular as the faster and slower moving planets come and go -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L74B98ITKEA&t=170s

Give credit to the engineers who built and operate the satellite if that is what you wish and explain how it manages to remove the limitations of the central Sun's glare and the Earth's daily rotation.
  #19  
Old January 27th 19, 12:01 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Default Watching Mercury today

Quadibloc wrote:
On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 5:09:00 PM UTC-7, Mike Collins wrote:

So you’ve finally realised. You have given a link to a site which
demonstrates perfectly that from the point of view of the Sun there are no
retrogrades.


I don't think he _ever_ had an issue with that fact. Although, given the number
of real astronomical facts with which he does have issues, I understand that it
may be somewhat confusing to sort out one from another.

He recognizes the achievement of Copernicus in showing the planets don't orbit
the Earth, they orbit the Sun. He praises and applauds Copernicus, Galileo, and
Kepler.

And he has also affirmed that the retrograde motions of the outer planets are
illusory, rather than real; an artifact caused by the Earth's motion around the
Sun.

An issue that has recently come up is that he has stated that the retrograde
motions of Mercury and Venus *are not illusory*. Some people here have taken
issue with that statement. After all, if there are no retrograde motions from
the true viewpoint, the view from the Sun, how can any retrogrades we see be
anything but illusions?

But allowing for the fact that as he has an unusual perspective on the Solar
System and its motions, and so he doesn't use the same language as the rest of
us, it seems to me that what he is stating is a correct and true fact about the
Solar System, even if it isn't the novel original discovery on his part that he
thinks it is.

Look at the moons of Jupiter. They move backwards as well as forwards in their
orbit of Jupiter from our point of view. Is that an illusion?

No; the motion we're seeing is their real orbital motion around Jupiter.
Sometimes it's direct, and sometimes it's retrograde, because we're seeing the
system *from the outside*.

Similarly, when we see Venus and Mercury in retrograde motion, that retrograde
motion *is their real orbital motion around the Sun*. It isn't the Earth's
motion around the Sun that makes them look like they're in retrograde motion -
it's the fact that the Earth is farther away from the Sun, so when they pass in
front of the Sun, the direction of their orbital motion is reversed *because
we're seeing it from outside the orbit*.

The Earth's motion around the Sun makes an illusory contribution to their
motions of a progression through the Zodiac in the direct direction once a year,
moved along by the apparent motion of the Sun through the Zodiac.

If one looks at a drawing of the apparent orbits of the planets from Earth's
point of view, one sees a series of loops going around the Earth. The loops are
made by a big circle, giving the overall motion, and a little circle, adding the
loopy curlicues.

For an outer planet, the big circle has the period of the planet's orbit around
the Sun, and the little circle the period of the Earth's orbit around the Sun.

For an inner planet, the big circle has the period of one year - and the little
circle has the period of the planet's orbit around the Sun.

So the loops in the apparent orbit are "illusions" caused by the Earth's motion,
and not part of the planet's real solar orbit - for an outer planet.

For an inner planet, the loops are the planet's real solar orbit - as we see it
from outside - and the apparent overall orbit is the contribution of the Sun's
illusory apparent motion around the Earth.

He noticed this, and is calling attention to the fact that for the inner
planets, the retrogrades aren't illusions imposed by the Earth's motion, but
instead are to be expected from observing the reality of those planets' always-
direct motion around the Sun from the *outside* _position_ of the Earth.

That he has managed, for once, to actually get something _right_, however
clumsily he may express this insight...

causes me to be dismayed when those who, knowing astronomy properly, without the
confusion from which he suffers, mistakenly tell him he is wrong once agaoin.

If those who know things better than he, because of his difficulty in expressing
himself, tell him he is wrong _even when he's right_, then even if he were to
suddenly start listening to us, the result would be to make him even more
hopelessly confused than he is already, instead of leading him out of his
confusion to the truth.

John Savard


How have you managed to miss his years of vilifying Newton for stating that
from the Sun there are no retrogrades? I’m merely congratulating him for
linking to a site which simulates the Solar System from a point of view in
which there are no retrogrades.


  #20  
Old January 27th 19, 07:57 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Watching Mercury today

The direct/retrograde motion of the other planets are simply a consequence that our planet and the rest orbit a stationary and central Sun to the solar system.

It is now a two stage historical process where the direct/retrogrades of the slower moving planets are a result of the faster moving Earth overtaking them while the direct/retrogrades of the faster moving planets are from an entirely different perspective.

In either case, the Earth's orbital motion is inclusive -

The relative speeds of our planet and the slower ones infer a central Sun by referencing their motions to the background stars where the slower planets temporarily fall behind in view as the Earth overtakes them -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/011...2000_tezel.gif

The Earth's orbital motion is inclusive of the faster planets by its larger orbital circumference and the change in position of the stars from left to right of the Sun, this change is parallel to the orbital plane and minus stellar circumpolar motion -

https://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data...current_c3.gif

Mercury is about to pass behind the Sun presently in its smaller circuit and in a few months will be seen to return moving in the opposite direction and faster than the change in position of the stars to the central Sun.


The view is already gaining acceptance and why wouldn't it !, it is enjoyable for those who can accept that these satellites can create artificial conditions that exist only at solar eclipses for observers on the surface of the Earth. Screening out the glare of the Sun and any effects of daily rotation, we can see the planets of the inner solar system run their circuits while the slower moving planets always travel in the direction of the background stars when they come into view -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L74B98ITKEA&t=266s


I don't object to others when they promote the proper view without attribution, I do mind when they present it in a half right/half wrong way. As people here are either immune to the differing perspectives or lack influence, I suppose it will have to exist here until someone else gets it right.
 




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