[FWD] Apollo veterans to get moon rocks (sort of)

In article ,
Bruce Palmer wrote:
It's all relative Most of the samples returned are locked away in a
vault. If they all disappeared tomorrow would science be any worse off?

Yes, definitely. They aren't just "locked in a vault", there is ongoing
scientific activity using them. It's limited in certain ways, partly
because everyone is aware that they are a finite resource and there's no
telling when we'll get more, partly because *funding* for lunar science
is relatively poor. But it hasn't stopped.

Are there any valuable scientific insights locked away inside them that
haven't been discovered yet? I'm not aware of any ongoing studies
involving the Apollo sample returns.

There are some, but they usually don't make headlines. You have to read
the planetary-science journals to be aware of them.

If the Exploration Initiative comes off and we get back to the moon in
another 25 years or so scientists will have access to new samples.

There will be little rejoicing if those samples come from the sort of
location that's likely for early landings. Now, samples from the shaded
polar craters, or the Aitken basin, or any of a number of other anomalous
areas never sampled, would be very interesting. Especially if accompanied
by serious funding for science using them.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

Henry Spencer wrote:
In article ,
Bruce Palmer wrote:

It's all relative Most of the samples returned are locked away in a
vault. If they all disappeared tomorrow would science be any worse off?

Yes, definitely. They aren't just "locked in a vault", there is ongoing
scientific activity using them. It's limited in certain ways, partly
because everyone is aware that they are a finite resource and there's no
telling when we'll get more, partly because *funding* for lunar science
is relatively poor. But it hasn't stopped.

Are there any valuable scientific insights locked away inside them that
haven't been discovered yet? I'm not aware of any ongoing studies
involving the Apollo sample returns.

There are some, but they usually don't make headlines. You have to read
the planetary-science journals to be aware of them.

Thanks for that, Henry. I wasn't sure.

If the Exploration Initiative comes off and we get back to the moon in
another 25 years or so scientists will have access to new samples.

There will be little rejoicing if those samples come from the sort of
location that's likely for early landings. Now, samples from the shaded
polar craters, or the Aitken basin, or any of a number of other anomalous
areas never sampled, would be very interesting. Especially if accompanied
by serious funding for science using them.

No doubt samples from more exotic locations would be cause for
excitement. It's like an ice cream shop with 28 flavors and we've only
tasted vanilla so far.... with a little chocolate from Fra Mauro and
strawberry from Taurus-Littrow maybe.

Let me ask you, with what we know about the run-of-the-mill generic
regolith and surface rocks is there anything additional to be found out
as might pertain to self-sustenance on the moon? I was thinking along
the lines of energy; electrical power and/or fuel extraction come to
mind. Water is completely out of the question as I understand it,
unless found frozen in the recesses of dark craters.

--
bp
Proud Member of the Human O-Ring Society Since 2003

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:28:46 GMT, Bruce Palmer
wrote:

No doubt samples from more exotic locations would be cause for
excitement. It's like an ice cream shop with 28 flavors and we've only
tasted vanilla so far.... with a little chocolate from Fra Mauro and
strawberry from Taurus-Littrow maybe.

....With a little butter pecan from Hadley Rille, and maybe a little of
some oddball flavor that only shows up around football season.

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

Bruce Palmer ) wrote:
: Eric Chomko wrote:
: Well don't act like this is a first for the government. In the case of
: money, at one point you were allowed to coin your own money. This was
: common practice in San Francisco after the gold rush. You would bring your
: gold to an assay office that would weigh it and detrmine its value and
: take a small percentage for doing so. Some could convert your gold into a
: coin complete with obverse and reverse markings. Well, the USG changed all
: that by making it illegal for anyone to coin their own money and the
: proceeded to make smaller coins with the same denominations as the private
: coin makers.

: Yes, the federal govt. wasn't always in the business of regulating
: money. Now you can hardly earn or spend a nickel without them wanting
: to know about it, never mind making your own.

Somene asked me once, would you rather keep what they take or what you
keep now? Let me ask you the same thing...

: snip

: Access to the Air and Space Museum is free.

: I forgot about NASM, I was thinking only of KSC and other non-free
: museums. You're right.

Well, KSC does cost and it isn't cheap, but compared to other things like
in Orlando it isn't real bad.

: : I mean, I agree that the samples are a priceless national treasure, but
: : if you've got 800 pounds of rocks and you "lose" or misplace or give
: : away maybe 1% of that over the course of 35 years then you're doing
: : pretty good regardless. It's not like you can eat them, or that NatSec
: : would be endangered by them going missing.
: Agreed. But where do you draw the line? 1% or 8 lbs.? Why? Why not more?
: Okay, where?

: It's all relative Most of the samples returned are locked away in a
: vault. If they all disappeared tomorrow would science be any worse off?

Not sure if that's the point. Maybe the govt. will auction them off like
they did the last of the mint's Carson City silver dollars back in the
70s?

: Are there any valuable scientific insights locked away inside them that
: haven't been discovered yet? I'm not aware of any ongoing studies
: involving the Apollo sample returns.

Well, the Hope Diamond and other tresures are locked in vaults too in the
Museum of Natural History on the DC Mall. Is that better that they are on
display?

: If the Exploration Initiative comes off and we get back to the moon in
: another 25 years or so scientists will have access to new samples.

That would be a good thing to paraphrase Martha Stewart.

: Maybe selling moon rocks is one of the private enterprise business
: models envisioned for this venture. Supply and demand. I think if
: anyone could freely buy a moon rock at a reasonable price the actual
: demand would be small. It's their scarcity that makes ordinary people
: and collectors covet them.

Small in the beginning and get the point where it becomes like buying a
pet rock or a trilobyte at a rock show, in maybe 100 years.

: As a last mention of coins, if you own a 1964 Peace Dollar, do not show it
: to anybody. To this day it is illegal to own and the Secret Service has
: reserved the right to confiscate any and all samples that were made that
: may not have been destroyed. Period!

: Interesting. I wonder if they follow up on anonymous tips.

I bet that they do.

Eric

: --
: bp
: Proud Member of the Human O-Ring Society Since 2003

Bruce Palmer wrote:

No doubt samples from more exotic locations would be cause for
excitement. It's like an ice cream shop with 28 flavors and we've only
tasted vanilla so far.... with a little chocolate from Fra Mauro and
strawberry from Taurus-Littrow maybe.

Don't forget the rum'n'raisin from Hadley-Appenine...

Let me ask you, with what we know about the run-of-the-mill generic
regolith and surface rocks is there anything additional to be found out
as might pertain to self-sustenance on the moon? I was thinking along
the lines of energy; electrical power and/or fuel extraction come to
mind. Water is completely out of the question as I understand it,
unless found frozen in the recesses of dark craters.

Some time ago I secured about a kilo of lunar soil simulant called
JSC-1. It was supposed to chemically and mechanically simulate mare
regolith, albeit already oxidized (duh) and with water (from our air)
but *without* helium-3 and whatever other exotics 4 billion years of
exposure to the solar wind might include...

The purpose of JSC-1 (and MLS - another regolith simulant) was to assist
researchers in determining how regolith could be utilized by lunar
explorers or colonists. For quite a while now the Shimizu Corporation
has been looking in to all sorts of uses for regolith, from construction
blocks for buildings to metal extraction for fabrication/manufacture.

It has been *ages* since I've delved (been a bit pre-occupied elsewhere,
you might say), but they might be one place to look for answers.

A quick Google also yields this:
http://www.spacefuture.com/cgi/gloss...rces%3ALuna r
and I'd suggest maybe chasing Shimizu directly.


David
--
per aspera ad astra

Bruce Palmer wrote:

Let me ask you, with what we know about the run-of-the-mill generic
regolith and surface rocks is there anything additional to be found out as
might pertain to self-sustenance on the moon? I was thinking along the
lines of energy; electrical power and/or fuel extraction come to mind.
Water is completely out of the question as I understand it, unless found
frozen in the recesses of dark craters.

Bruce,

You might consult

G.H. Heiken, D.T. Vaniman, and B.M. French, Eds., "Lunar Sourcebook: A
User's Guide to the Moon." Cambridge University Press, 1991, 736 pp.

It's a little dated now (nothing from Lunar Prospector or Clementine,
obviously) but things haven't changed that much otherwise.

Solar energy, oxygen, silicon, and aluminum are greatly abundant. Hydrogen
and iron are almost totally absent. The properties of the lunar regolith are
sufficiently well understood to at least anticipate the use of lunar surface
materials in civil engineering applications.

HTH.

--
Dave Michelson

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:25:41 +0000, G.Beat wrote:

"Rick DeNatale" wrote in message
news refreshed my memory, this room is on the second floor,
not in the basement.


The building is 2 story with basement and the other 2 dining rooms -
have windows
The Odyssey (as I remember) .. is on the second floor.

I went downstairs to the Captain's Quarters

Upstairs, Downstairs, OK, so I'm old, corpulent, and it seems slightly
senile. G

I guess that it makes sense that they'd be hiding that (illegal) moon rock
in the basement. G

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:15:15 GMT, Dave Michelson
wrote:

Solar energy, oxygen, silicon, and aluminum are greatly abundant. Hydrogen
and iron are almost totally absent.

....So, with those quantities known, have any estimates been made as to
the possibilites of materials and compounds of more exotic natures
being found? The presence of aluminum might lead to sapphire, etc.

....For that matter, do we have a periodic table that shows what we
believe *does* exist on the Moon based on observations and hard data?

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

Dave Michelson wrote:
Bruce Palmer wrote:

Let me ask you, with what we know about the run-of-the-mill generic
regolith and surface rocks is there anything additional to be found out as
might pertain to self-sustenance on the moon? I was thinking along the
lines of energy; electrical power and/or fuel extraction come to mind.
Water is completely out of the question as I understand it, unless found
frozen in the recesses of dark craters.

Bruce,

You might consult

G.H. Heiken, D.T. Vaniman, and B.M. French, Eds., "Lunar Sourcebook: A
User's Guide to the Moon." Cambridge University Press, 1991, 736 pp.

It's a little dated now (nothing from Lunar Prospector or Clementine,
obviously) but things haven't changed that much otherwise.

Solar energy, oxygen, silicon, and aluminum are greatly abundant. Hydrogen
and iron are almost totally absent. The properties of the lunar regolith are
sufficiently well understood to at least anticipate the use of lunar surface
materials in civil engineering applications.

HTH.

Thanks, Dave and David. Most helpful. Conincidentally enough, today,
in conjunction with the Apollo 11 anniversary, NTV is showing interview
clips with people who work at the lunar sample lab. They're discussing
the history of the lab and the type of work being done with the samples.
And yes, as Henry pointed out, work is still going on today.

--
bp
(brucepalmero at gmail dot com (remove last 'o'))

OM wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:28:46 GMT, Bruce Palmer
wrote:

No doubt samples from more exotic locations would be cause for
excitement. It's like an ice cream shop with 28 flavors and we've only
tasted vanilla so far.... with a little chocolate from Fra Mauro and
strawberry from Taurus-Littrow maybe.

...With a little butter pecan from Hadley Rille, and maybe a little of
some oddball flavor that only shows up around football season.

Mmmm! Good!

I wonder if the old quarrantine procedures we used for the Apollo sample
returns will be done away with when we get back to the moon. Haven't
they proved harmless?

--
bp
Proud Member of the Human O-Ring Society Since 2003
(brucepalmero at gmail dot com (remove last 'o'))