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Looking for Oregon meteorites
I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking
for meteorites in the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13 meteorites or fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? Daniel B. Wheeler |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
wrote in message
... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking for meteorites in the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13 meteorites or fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? Daniel B. Wheeler General characteristics of iron meteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection of meteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
"Mike Dworetsky" ) writes:
wrote in message ... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking for meteorites in the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13 meteorites or fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? Daniel B. Wheeler General characteristics of iron meteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. Surely the Widmanstaetten patterns are visible only after the object is cut, polished and etched--so you'd need strong suspicions about it before you'd even look for them. --John Park I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection of meteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
"John Park" wrote in message
... "Mike Dworetsky" ) writes: wrote in message ... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking for meteorites in the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13 meteorites or fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? Daniel B. Wheeler General characteristics of iron meteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. Surely the Widmanstaetten patterns are visible only after the object is cut, polished and etched--so you'd need strong suspicions about it before you'd even look for them. --John Park Absolutely. Just looking at the meteorite (and having a general idea that such things exist and look like this example) is a pretty strong clue. The pattern test is a final clincher. If you ever get a chance, do visit that museum in Vienna, a whole room full of meteorites, though nothing on the scale of the American Museum's giants. I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection of meteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
On Sep 20, 1:16 am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote: wrote in message ... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? Daniel B. Wheeler General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) Your comment regarding the Widmanstaten diagrams or patterns is well taken, Mike. The problem is that Elis Hughes knew nothing about them until well after the meteorite had been taken from him. He identified the stone as a meteorite, along with a miner named Dale, before a meteorite expert was dispatched from the east to confirm the identification. I strongly suspect Elis Hughes knew it was a meteorite because another meteorite, according to one account I found, fell in the Tigard vicinity in 1900-01, and was subsequently displayed at the 1905 Lewis & Clark World's Fair in Portland. Almost at the very end, the Willamette was finally taken to the Fair and displayed for the last few weeks of the exhibit. But Elis found the meteorite in 1902. Moving the meteorite, a rather heroic fete considering he used his son and one horse to move the 15 1/2 ton stone nearly 3/4 of a mile to his home, implies that he knew absolutely that the stone was a meteorite before attempting to move it. I would posit the only way Elis Hughes could have been positive of his identification was because he had already seen another meteorite - one which has since been lost to science. Other than a single reference of a boy who supposedly witnessed the Tigard meteorite fall almost 80 years later, I have found nothing about this stone. Of course, the main building of the Lewis & Clark World's Fair, a massive wooden log cabin structure, was burnt in a fire a few years after the fair ended. Another oddity: I am also tracing multiple fragments of meteorites which fell in the Portland area 2-5 years before Hughes' discovery of the Willamette. According to articles published about 1900, a large bolide exploded several miles above the Columbia River near Scappoose, and showered the area from Scappose to Tigard with multiple fragments. Oddly, many of these fragments were later recovered. Why? A recent snow storm had left some 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, and people heard object hitting nearby, then found a hole in the snow (one if a strawberry patch!) and found a blackish rock in the bottom of the hole. But no one called them meteorites at the time. I believe they were referred to only as fireballs. Although by the time they hit earth they were not on fire at all. Many of these fragments were later displayed in a downtown Portland department store window for some time, before being donated to a local museum. That museum now has hosted displays of part of the H.H.Nininger collection. But apparently does not know they also may have multiple pieces of a more local meteorite already in their collections. The most interesting thing about historical research is ... many times things get forgotten quickly. Daniel B. Wheeler |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
On Sep 20, 11:32 pm, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote: "John Park" wrote in message ... "Mike Dworetsky" ) writes: wrote in message ... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? Daniel B. Wheeler General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. Surely the Widmanstaetten patterns are visible only after the object is cut, polished and etched--so you'd need strong suspicions about it before you'd even look for them. --John Park Absolutely. Just looking at the meteorite (and having a general idea that such things exist and look like this example) is a pretty strong clue. The pattern test is a final clincher. If you ever get a chance, do visit that museum in Vienna, a whole room full ofmeteorites, though nothing on the scale of the American Museum's giants. I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky You are certainly correct, Mike. I suspect John is also correct. But while these object were generally known and accepted in the early 1800's in Europe, Thomas Jefferson once said he believed it easier to believe 2 Yankee professors were lying rather than accept that stones could fall from the sky. That was 1807, I believe. When dealing with history, it's important to know who discovered what, and when. There are other positive factors that can identify meteorites in the field. Iron-nickel meteorites are often attracted to magnets, and may well be magnetic in their own right. The metallic composition of a metallic meteorite also makes a ringing sound when struck by another object. The Willamette would ring when struck by a hand, a test that Hughes used himself. But if Hughes knew the stone was a meteorite on site, he must have already seen a meteorite somewhere. If not the Tigard meteorite, which may have fallen about 15 miles away from West Linn a few years earlier, then where did Hughes see this meteorite? Which meteorite was it? Daniel B. Wheeler |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
wrote in message ... On Sep 20, 11:32 pm, "Mike Dworetsky" wrote: "John Park" wrote in message ... "Mike Dworetsky" ) writes: wrote in message ... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? Daniel B. Wheeler General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. Surely the Widmanstaetten patterns are visible only after the object is cut, polished and etched--so you'd need strong suspicions about it before you'd even look for them. --John Park Absolutely. Just looking at the meteorite (and having a general idea that such things exist and look like this example) is a pretty strong clue. The pattern test is a final clincher. If you ever get a chance, do visit that museum in Vienna, a whole room full ofmeteorites, though nothing on the scale of the American Museum's giants. I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky You are certainly correct, Mike. I suspect John is also correct. But while these object were generally known and accepted in the early 1800's in Europe, Thomas Jefferson once said he believed it easier to believe 2 Yankee professors were lying rather than accept that stones could fall from the sky. That was 1807, I believe. He was wrong, of course. Everyone makes mistakes, except the Pope, who is infallible. (Yes, I know, in matters of faith.) When dealing with history, it's important to know who discovered what, and when. There are other positive factors that can identify meteorites in the field. Iron-nickel meteorites are often attracted to magnets, and may well be magnetic in their own right. The metallic composition of a metallic meteorite also makes a ringing sound when struck by another object. The Willamette would ring when struck by a hand, a test that Hughes used himself. But if Hughes knew the stone was a meteorite on site, he must have already seen a meteorite somewhere. If not the Tigard meteorite, which may have fallen about 15 miles away from West Linn a few years earlier, then where did Hughes see this meteorite? Which meteorite was it? Daniel B. Wheeler These are questions I cannot answer, someone would have to do more research (not me). -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
wrote in message
... On Sep 20, 1:16 am, "Mike Dworetsky" wrote: wrote in message ... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? Daniel B. Wheeler General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) Your comment regarding the Widmanstaten diagrams or patterns is well taken, Mike. The problem is that Elis Hughes knew nothing about them until well after the meteorite had been taken from him. He identified the stone as a meteorite, along with a miner named Dale, before a meteorite expert was dispatched from the east to confirm the identification. I strongly suspect Elis Hughes knew it was a meteorite because another meteorite, according to one account I found, fell in the Tigard vicinity in 1900-01, and was subsequently displayed at the 1905 Lewis & Clark World's Fair in Portland. Almost at the very end, the Willamette was finally taken to the Fair and displayed for the last few weeks of the exhibit. But Elis found the meteorite in 1902. Moving the meteorite, a rather heroic fete considering he used his son and one horse to move the 15 1/2 ton stone nearly 3/4 of a mile to his home, implies that he knew absolutely that the stone was a meteorite before attempting to move it. I would posit the only way Elis Hughes could have been positive of his identification was because he had already seen another meteorite - one which has since been lost to science. Other than a single reference of a boy who supposedly witnessed the Tigard meteorite fall almost 80 years later, I have found nothing about this stone. Of course, the main building of the Lewis & Clark World's Fair, a massive wooden log cabin structure, was burnt in a fire a few years after the fair ended. Another oddity: I am also tracing multiple fragments of meteorites which fell in the Portland area 2-5 years before Hughes' discovery of the Willamette. According to articles published about 1900, a large bolide exploded several miles above the Columbia River near Scappoose, and showered the area from Scappose to Tigard with multiple fragments. Oddly, many of these fragments were later recovered. Why? A recent snow storm had left some 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, and people heard object hitting nearby, then found a hole in the snow (one if a strawberry patch!) and found a blackish rock in the bottom of the hole. But no one called them meteorites at the time. I believe they were referred to only as fireballs. Although by the time they hit earth they were not on fire at all. Many of these fragments were later displayed in a downtown Portland department store window for some time, before being donated to a local museum. That museum now has hosted displays of part of the H.H.Nininger collection. But apparently does not know they also may have multiple pieces of a more local meteorite already in their collections. The most interesting thing about historical research is ... many times things get forgotten quickly. Daniel B. Wheeler Interesting stuff! Aside from making a direct comparison, could he not have read about meteorites in books and even seen pictures? Most of the tests described by you were known then and he would almost certainly have owned a compass. The other Portland object was almost certainly a stony meteorite; irons do not explode so easily. -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
On Sep 21, 1:53*am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote: wrote in message ... On Sep 20, 1:16 am, "Mike Dworetsky" wrote: wrote in message .... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? DanielB.Wheeler General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. *I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) Your comment regarding the Widmanstaten diagrams or patterns is well taken, Mike. The problem is that Elis Hughes knew nothing about them until well after the meteorite had been taken from him. He identified the stone as a meteorite, along with a miner named Dale, before a meteorite expert was dispatched from the east to confirm the identification. I strongly suspect Elis Hughes knew it was a meteorite because another meteorite, according to one account I found, fell in the Tigard vicinity in 1900-01, and was subsequently displayed at the 1905 Lewis & Clark World's Fair in Portland. Almost at the very end, the Willamette was finally taken to the Fair and displayed for the last few weeks of the exhibit. But Elis found the meteorite in 1902. Moving the meteorite, a rather heroic fete considering he used his son and one horse to move the 15 1/2 ton stone nearly 3/4 of a mile to his home, implies that he knew absolutely that the stone was a meteorite before attempting to move it. I would posit the only way Elis Hughes could have been positive of his identification was because he had already seen another meteorite - one which has since been lost to science. Other than a single reference of a boy who supposedly witnessed the Tigard meteorite fall almost 80 years later, I have found nothing about this stone. Of course, the main building of the Lewis & Clark World's Fair, a massive wooden log cabin structure, was burnt in a fire a few years after the fair ended. Another oddity: I am also tracing multiple fragments of meteorites which fell in the Portland area 2-5 years before Hughes' discovery of the Willamette. According to articles published about 1900, a large bolide exploded several miles above the Columbia River near Scappoose, and showered the area from Scappose to Tigard with multiple fragments. Oddly, many of these fragments were later recovered. Why? A recent snow storm had left some 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, and people heard object hitting nearby, then found a hole in the snow (one if a strawberry patch!) and found a blackish rock in the bottom of the hole. But no one called them meteorites at the time. I believe they were referred to only as fireballs. Although by the time they hit earth they were not on fire at all. Many of these fragments were later displayed in a downtown Portland department store window for some time, before being donated to a local museum. That museum now has hosted displays of part of the H.H.Nininger collection. But apparently does not know they also may have multiple pieces of a more local meteorite already in their collections. The most interesting thing about historical research is ... many times things get forgotten quickly. DanielB.Wheeler Interesting stuff! *Aside from making a direct comparison, could he not have read about meteorites in books and even seen pictures? *Most of the tests described by you were known then and he would almost certainly have owned a compass. The other Portland object was almost certainly a stony meteorite; irons do not explode so easily. The tests for meteorites were certainly known, but not in Oregon. According to Ellis' own testimony and the subsequent trials here in Oregon, where possession of the meteorite was first awarded to the Oregon Iron and Steel Company, and subsequently to the Grand Ronde Indians (representing the Clackamas Indians). But while Ellis seems certain of his identification of the stone as a meteorite, there is nothing else giving positive identification. Even the experts who subsequently examined the stone waited until the samples taken were etched before concluding the stone was a massive meteorite. This bring up a completely different point: how did such a massive meteorite make it through the atmosphere and landing impact (probably somewhere in either Montana or Canada) without being broken/destroyed? Yes, it is a form of stainless steel, which would have greater resistance to impacts of any kind. But supposedly large meteorites are destroyed largely by the effects of ablation through the atmosphere. Obviously, this doesn't hold true in all cases! The South African (Hoba?) meteorite is some 60 tons. Another meteorite I have a lead on was much larger, possibly in the 90-120 tons range, making it the largest such rock currently known in the world. Still another point: meteoritic material is the source of all platinum- group metals, according to my chemistry prof at Oregon State University. Yet, there are a few places were platinum, osmium, iridium, palladium, etc. are commercially found in quantities to warrant their extraction alone. Typically they are extracted as a by- product of gold, silver, or copper mining. No meteor has been found of solid or near solid platinum (yeah, I know, that asteroid is largely platinum). Question: Would platinum retain more of its mass through the ablation process? Or would something largely platinum (say 40%) still burn off as quickly, more quickly, or less quickly? Daniel B. Wheeler |
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Looking for Oregon meteorites
wrote in message
... On Sep 21, 1:53 am, "Mike Dworetsky" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sep 20, 1:16 am, "Mike Dworetsky" wrote: wrote in message ... I will shortly retire (Nov. 7) and plan on spending some time looking formeteoritesin the state of Oregon. Looking for any sources of known falls, including those in the Portland area circa 1900. I have already found information on some 13meteoritesor fireballs known from Oregon, not including the July 2 1939 fireball which zoomed across Portland on its way to impact naer Washougal, WA. Have a newspaper clipping (quite old) detailing an estimated 4,000 pound meteorite, including picture and first-hand account of fall. Anyone else heard of this one that took a team of horses and 6 men to move it a short distance? One of the most interesting questions I have regards the historic recovery by Ellis Hughes of the Willamette Meteorite in 1903. How did Hughes know it was a meteorite? What reference did he have to make that analysis? DanielB.Wheeler General characteristics of ironmeteorites, including the Widmanstaetten pattern used as a test, were well known by 1903 so he probably already knew it was a meteorite simply by laying eyes on it. I can't cite any early publications without more research, but in the 19th century, for example, the Emperor of Austria-Hungary had an extensive collection ofmeteorites (knowing what they were) which is now in the Vienna Natural History Museum. The pattern test was discovered in the first decade of the 19th century so the knowledge was general and appears in various later 19th century popular astronomy (and geology) texts. -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) Your comment regarding the Widmanstaten diagrams or patterns is well taken, Mike. The problem is that Elis Hughes knew nothing about them until well after the meteorite had been taken from him. He identified the stone as a meteorite, along with a miner named Dale, before a meteorite expert was dispatched from the east to confirm the identification. I strongly suspect Elis Hughes knew it was a meteorite because another meteorite, according to one account I found, fell in the Tigard vicinity in 1900-01, and was subsequently displayed at the 1905 Lewis & Clark World's Fair in Portland. Almost at the very end, the Willamette was finally taken to the Fair and displayed for the last few weeks of the exhibit. But Elis found the meteorite in 1902. Moving the meteorite, a rather heroic fete considering he used his son and one horse to move the 15 1/2 ton stone nearly 3/4 of a mile to his home, implies that he knew absolutely that the stone was a meteorite before attempting to move it. I would posit the only way Elis Hughes could have been positive of his identification was because he had already seen another meteorite - one which has since been lost to science. Other than a single reference of a boy who supposedly witnessed the Tigard meteorite fall almost 80 years later, I have found nothing about this stone. Of course, the main building of the Lewis & Clark World's Fair, a massive wooden log cabin structure, was burnt in a fire a few years after the fair ended. Another oddity: I am also tracing multiple fragments of meteorites which fell in the Portland area 2-5 years before Hughes' discovery of the Willamette. According to articles published about 1900, a large bolide exploded several miles above the Columbia River near Scappoose, and showered the area from Scappose to Tigard with multiple fragments. Oddly, many of these fragments were later recovered. Why? A recent snow storm had left some 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, and people heard object hitting nearby, then found a hole in the snow (one if a strawberry patch!) and found a blackish rock in the bottom of the hole. But no one called them meteorites at the time. I believe they were referred to only as fireballs. Although by the time they hit earth they were not on fire at all. Many of these fragments were later displayed in a downtown Portland department store window for some time, before being donated to a local museum. That museum now has hosted displays of part of the H.H.Nininger collection. But apparently does not know they also may have multiple pieces of a more local meteorite already in their collections. The most interesting thing about historical research is ... many times things get forgotten quickly. DanielB.Wheeler Interesting stuff! Aside from making a direct comparison, could he not have read about meteorites in books and even seen pictures? Most of the tests described by you were known then and he would almost certainly have owned a compass. The other Portland object was almost certainly a stony meteorite; irons do not explode so easily. The tests for meteorites were certainly known, but not in Oregon. According to Ellis' own testimony and the subsequent trials here in Oregon, where possession of the meteorite was first awarded to the Oregon Iron and Steel Company, and subsequently to the Grand Ronde Indians (representing the Clackamas Indians). But while Ellis seems certain of his identification of the stone as a meteorite, there is nothing else giving positive identification. Even the experts who subsequently examined the stone waited until the samples taken were etched before concluding the stone was a massive meteorite. This bring up a completely different point: how did such a massive meteorite make it through the atmosphere and landing impact (probably somewhere in either Montana or Canada) without being broken/destroyed? Yes, it is a form of stainless steel, which would have greater resistance to impacts of any kind. But supposedly large meteorites are destroyed largely by the effects of ablation through the atmosphere. Obviously, this doesn't hold true in all cases! The South African (Hoba?) meteorite is some 60 tons. Another meteorite I have a lead on was much larger, possibly in the 90-120 tons range, making it the largest such rock currently known in the world. Still another point: meteoritic material is the source of all platinum- group metals, according to my chemistry prof at Oregon State University. Yet, there are a few places were platinum, osmium, iridium, palladium, etc. are commercially found in quantities to warrant their extraction alone. Typically they are extracted as a by- product of gold, silver, or copper mining. No meteor has been found of solid or near solid platinum (yeah, I know, that asteroid is largely platinum). Question: Would platinum retain more of its mass through the ablation process? Or would something largely platinum (say 40%) still burn off as quickly, more quickly, or less quickly? Daniel B. Wheeler -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MD: The amount of platinum in meteorites is nowhere near 40%. Maybe 0.040%? Probably less. Iron meteorites are tough; hard to break up during entry. Stony ones are usually more fragile. That's why irons usually survive more or less intact. I'm wondering if Ellis was, um, telling a fib? -- Mike Dworetsky (Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply) |
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